From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 7 08:45:33 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17929; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:45:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id IAA12265 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:44:11 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA12261 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:44:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000407134410.GSUX26983.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:44:10 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000407094429.017c3340@netmail.home.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netmail.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:44:29 -0400 To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Netscape 6 initial impressions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I just installed Netscape 6 beta and (after losing the battle over cookies) had a look at pngsuite, toucans, etc., and it seems to be doing the right things with gamma, tRNS, alpha (even against a background image), bKGD, and progressive display of Adam-7 interlaced PNGs. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 7 10:37:34 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19752; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:37:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id KAA14840 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:32:30 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from tux.w3.org (tux.w3.org [18.29.0.27]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA14835 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:32:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from w3.org (IDENT:root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tux.w3.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26608; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:32:29 -0400 Message-ID: <38EDFF86.A0722A00@w3.org> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:32:22 +0200 From: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions References: <3.0.6.32.20000407094429.017c3340@netmail.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote: > > I just installed Netscape 6 beta and (after losing the battle over cookies) > had a look at pngsuite, toucans, etc., and it seems to be doing the right > things with gamma, tRNS, alpha (even against a background image), bKGD, and > progressive display of Adam-7 interlaced PNGs. Not really - I agree that general display, and gamma, seem OK but compositing is still wrong. See http://www.w3.org/Graphics/PNG/inline-alpha-table http://www.w3.org/Graphics/PNG/inline-alpha.html which demonstrate the same compositing bugs that Mozilla has had since at least M4, and presumably since it started. -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 7 14:09:49 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23062; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:09:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id OAA22115 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:04:47 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA22111 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:04:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000407190447.NOYZ26983.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:04:47 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000407150506.0114d660@netmail.home.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netmail.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:05:06 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-Reply-To: <38EDFF86.A0722A00@w3.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20000407094429.017c3340@netmail.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 05:32 PM 4/7/00 +0200, you wrote: >compositing is still wrong. > >See > >http://www.w3.org/Graphics/PNG/inline-alpha-table >http://www.w3.org/Graphics/PNG/inline-alpha.html > >which demonstrate the same compositing bugs that Mozilla has had since at >least M4, and presumably since it started. Yes, that's fairly ugly, looking as though it is using a threshold to convert alpha into on-off transparency. It does seem to be getting GIF-style transparency right, though. Perhaps we could help them out by adding a png_set_dither_alpha() transform that they can use until they figure out how to do compositing. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 7 15:44:36 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24428; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:44:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id PAA25264 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:39:30 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA25260 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:39:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from heresy (209-128-64-162.bayarea.net [209.128.64.162]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA83055 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:39:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad@nogoodreason.com) Message-ID: <001501bfa0d1$50993490$0800a8c0@home.local> From: "Brad Pettit" To: "PNG List" References: <3.0.6.32.20000407094429.017c3340@netmail.home.com> <3.0.6.32.20000407150506.0114d660@netmail.home.com> Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:39:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List PNG support is now integrated into MSIE 5.0 for Macintosh, which shipped two weeks ago. Alpha compositing looks very nice in it (if I do say so myself). The support made use of libpng 1.03 with some early iCCP chunk code added. --Brad bradp@microsoft.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Randers-Pehrson" To: "PNG List" Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 12:05 PM Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions > At 05:32 PM 4/7/00 +0200, you wrote: > > >compositing is still wrong. > > > >See > > > >http://www.w3.org/Graphics/PNG/inline-alpha-table > >http://www.w3.org/Graphics/PNG/inline-alpha.html > > > >which demonstrate the same compositing bugs that Mozilla has had since at > >least M4, and presumably since it started. > > Yes, that's fairly ugly, looking as though it is using a threshold to > convert alpha into on-off transparency. It does seem to be getting > GIF-style transparency right, though. > > Perhaps we could help them out by adding a png_set_dither_alpha() > transform that they can use until they figure out how to do compositing. > > Glenn > > -- > Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu > -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 7 16:22:49 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25036; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:22:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA26363 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:17:34 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA26358 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:17:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ive695.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.25.37]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA29202 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:17:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004072117.RAA29202@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:17:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-reply-to: <001501bfa0d1$50993490$0800a8c0@home.local> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 7 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Brad Pettit [Brad Pettit ] wrote [regarding Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions] > > PNG support is now integrated into MSIE 5.0 for Macintosh, which shipped > two weeks ago. > > Alpha compositing looks very nice in it (if I do say so myself). > > The support made use of libpng 1.03 with some early iCCP chunk code added. I know it is off-topic, but do you have any idea whether this MSIE 5 - Mac can be used to upgrade the browser component of AOL 4 for Macintosh (the newer AOL 5 won't be released for Mac for months yet) ... ? That would be so truly cool ... soren andersen -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 7 16:56:31 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25568; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:56:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA27187 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:51:51 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA27183 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:51:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000407215151.RNCW26983.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:51:51 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000407175208.01a36b20@netmail.home.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netmail.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:52:08 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-Reply-To: <001501bfa0d1$50993490$0800a8c0@home.local> References: <3.0.6.32.20000407094429.017c3340@netmail.home.com> <3.0.6.32.20000407150506.0114d660@netmail.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 01:39 PM 4/7/00 -0700, you wrote: >PNG support is now integrated into MSIE 5.0 for Macintosh >The support made use of libpng 1.03 with some early iCCP chunk code added. Netscape 6 seems to be using version 1.0.2 (nspng.dll contains strings "1.0.2" and "1.0.4", and we never released a 1.0.4) Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 7 17:03:04 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25665; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:03:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA27360 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:58:24 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [206.125.69.82]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA27355 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:58:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vader.boutell.com by boutell.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11269 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:00:46 -0700 Received: from localhost (boutell@localhost) by vader.boutell.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA31877 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:02:10 -0700 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:02:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Boutell To: PNG List Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-Reply-To: <001501bfa0d1$50993490$0800a8c0@home.local> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Brad Pettit wrote: > PNG support is now integrated into MSIE 5.0 for Macintosh, which shipped two > weeks ago. > > Alpha compositing looks very nice in it (if I do say so myself). > > The support made use of libpng 1.03 with some early iCCP chunk code added. Thanks for seeing to this. It's about time alpha blending was implemented properly in a mainstream browser. If only it was that way on all platforms... -- Thomas Boutell Boutell.Com, Inc. http://www.boutell.com/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 7 18:02:43 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26467; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:02:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id SAA28883 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:01:33 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA28879 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:01:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000407230121.STSK26983.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:01:21 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000407190139.01b3a6d0@netmail.home.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netmail.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 19:01:39 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000407150506.0114d660@netmail.home.com> References: <38EDFF86.A0722A00@w3.org> <3.0.6.32.20000407094429.017c3340@netmail.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 03:05 PM 4/7/00 -0400, you wrote: >At 05:32 PM 4/7/00 +0200, you wrote: > >>compositing is still wrong. >> >>See >> >>http://www.w3.org/Graphics/PNG/inline-alpha-table >>http://www.w3.org/Graphics/PNG/inline-alpha.html >> >>which demonstrate the same compositing bugs that Mozilla has had since at >>least M4, and presumably since it started. > >Yes, that's fairly ugly, looking as though it is using a threshold to >convert alpha into on-off transparency. It does seem to be getting >GIF-style transparency right, though. > >Perhaps we could help them out by adding a png_set_dither_alpha() >transform that they can use until they figure out how to do compositing. I put together a user transform function that accomplishes this (dithers the alpha channel down to on-off transparency), and tested it by replacing the "count_zero_samples" function in pngtest.c. It works fine, although the results aren't particularly attractive compared to a proper composition (a lot better than what Netscape 6 does with Chris's alphatest, though). I'll send it in an email attachment to anyone who's interested. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 7 21:58:18 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA28907; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:58:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id VAA03698 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:57:08 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA03694 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:57:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Apr 7 19:52:42 2000 To: "PNG List" Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:52:42 -0800 From: "Richard W. Franzen" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: on X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions X-Sender-Ip: 24.27.208.232 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Darn, I hate to say it, but something is wrong with display of at least some interlaced png's. Check out: http://dbatitan.home.att.net/changes/png/401k1.htm http://rocq.home.att.net/sihImages.html It looks like the last pass is not getting rendered by the Netscape 6 image engine. -- -- Rich -- http://rocq.home.att.net/pngBase.html -- On Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:44:29 Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote: > >I just installed Netscape 6 beta and (after losing the battle over cookies) >had a look at pngsuite, toucans, etc., and it seems to be doing the right >things with gamma, tRNS, alpha (even against a background image), bKGD, and >progressive display of Adam-7 interlaced PNGs. > >Glenn --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 7 22:17:59 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29152; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:17:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id WAA04425 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:17:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA04421 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:17:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Fri Apr 7 20:13:02 2000 To: "PNG List" Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 19:13:02 -0800 From: "Richard W. Franzen" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: on X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions X-Sender-Ip: 24.27.208.232 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Well golly, even my home page is munged. Use the link in my signature block, and advance to the middle of the page. I use two transparantized GIF's (created myself from their original forms) to represent the IMDB and Deja-News. They render properly at first, but then the picture vanishes and the ALT text ends up uncentered at the far left. Now I just have to figure why I'm bringing this GIF problem up in the png mail list... :) -- -- Rich -- http://rocq.home.att.net -- On Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:52:42 Richard W. Franzen wrote: >Darn, I hate to say it, but something is wrong >with display of at least some interlaced png's. Check out: > >http://dbatitan.home.att.net/changes/png/401k1.htm >http://rocq.home.att.net/sihImages.html > >It looks like the last pass is not getting rendered by the Netscape 6 image engine. > > -- Rich > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 8 03:47:16 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03143; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 03:47:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA11329 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 03:46:19 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.127.48]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA11324 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 03:46:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gerard3 (gjuyn.xs4all.nl [194.109.48.191]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01631 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:46:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004080846.KAA01631@smtp1.xs4all.nl> From: "Gerard Juyn" To: PNG List Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:44:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-reply-to: <38EDFF86.A0722A00@w3.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Date sent: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:32:22 +0200 From: Chris Lilley > Not really - I agree that general display, and gamma, seem OK but > compositing is still wrong. This is not entirely Netscape's or the Mozilla group's fault alone. I'm strictly speaking for the Windows platforms here. There are two ways to do proper compositing with alpha-channels. It depends mainly on how much effort you want to put into it. In the Windows system everything on the screen is a "control", which handles it's own painting, etc, etc. But a control has no knowledge whatsoever what's underneath it. It simply calls the Windows GDI functions to paint itself. For an image-control this is most likely the BitBlt function. This function allows one to define how the pixels should be composited against whatever is already there, and it supports on-off transparency. Unfortunately the remarkable foresight of MS has precluded alpha-compositing in the list of options. The fact that the DIB format has 4 bytes per pixel (eg. RGB + 1 reserved) is regretfully completely ignored. So if Netscape wanted to do the proper thing they'd have to consider the canvas of their Browser-window as a single "control" and do the composing inside the app. This would require them to practically write a complete GUI-system just to do alpha-compositing. Strictly speaking I don't think that's worth the effort. I haven't really looked at Gecko or it's source, so I can't say that I know if they have done this or not, but it is a bit unlikely. The absolute best place for it would be inside the BitBlt function of the Windows GDI. IMHO a quite simple solution as it's right where it belongs. But then again, who am I, to suggest such an improvement to the Industry-leader?!? Funny enough, I guess Mac-OS does offer this. I suppose the Apple guys have always been pretty good on graphics, and tend to cater for consumers AS WELL AS developers. Something that other firm could learn from. But hey. Let's not beat this to death. They're probably too worried already where they're gonna be working next year... G. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 8 11:24:01 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07961; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:24:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA20542 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:22:51 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA20538 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:22:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from heresy (209-128-64-162.bayarea.net [209.128.64.162]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA23826 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:22:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad@nogoodreason.com) Message-ID: <001701bfa176$a46db7d0$0800a8c0@home.local> From: "Brad Pettit" To: "PNG List" References: <200004080846.KAA01631@smtp1.xs4all.nl> Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:22:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Your defense has some holes in it. Even in MacOS, the high byte of a 32-bit pixel is not used for alpha. A mask is supplied in a different bitmap. Granted, MacOS Quickdraw has decent alpha capabilities, but if the application code isn't designed to call it, an OS capability is useless. On Windows, GDI has full support for drawing to a window. Though controls ARE windows, that's beside the point. Web controls don't have to be platform controls. We all choose to build the corners we back ourselves into. There is no reason other than wrong architectural choices for not being able to support alpha compositing on platforms that can support it. --bp Brad Pettit Macintosh Internet Explorer Dev Team ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerard Juyn" To: "PNG List" Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 2:44 AM Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions > Date sent: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:32:22 +0200 > From: Chris Lilley > > > Not really - I agree that general display, and gamma, seem OK but > > compositing is still wrong. > > This is not entirely Netscape's or the Mozilla group's fault alone. I'm > strictly speaking for the Windows platforms here. There are two ways > to do proper compositing with alpha-channels. It depends mainly on > how much effort you want to put into it. > > In the Windows system everything on the screen is a "control", which > handles it's own painting, etc, etc. But a control has no knowledge > whatsoever what's underneath it. It simply calls the Windows GDI > functions to paint itself. For an image-control this is most likely the > BitBlt function. This function allows one to define how the pixels should > be composited against whatever is already there, and it supports on-off > transparency. Unfortunately the remarkable foresight of MS has > precluded alpha-compositing in the list of options. The fact that the DIB > format has 4 bytes per pixel (eg. RGB + 1 reserved) is regretfully > completely ignored. > > So if Netscape wanted to do the proper thing they'd have to consider > the canvas of their Browser-window as a single "control" and do the > composing inside the app. This would require them to practically write > a complete GUI-system just to do alpha-compositing. Strictly speaking > I don't think that's worth the effort. I haven't really looked at Gecko or > it's source, so I can't say that I know if they have done this or not, but > it is a bit unlikely. > > The absolute best place for it would be inside the BitBlt function of the > Windows GDI. IMHO a quite simple solution as it's right where it > belongs. But then again, who am I, to suggest such an improvement to > the Industry-leader?!? > > Funny enough, I guess Mac-OS does offer this. I suppose the Apple > guys have always been pretty good on graphics, and tend to cater for > consumers AS WELL AS developers. Something that other firm could > learn from. But hey. Let's not beat this to death. They're probably too > worried already where they're gonna be working next year... > > G. > > > -- > Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu > -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 8 12:07:42 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08470; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:07:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id MAA21509 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:06:47 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA21504 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:06:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 5652 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2000 17:06:46 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 8 Apr 2000 17:06:46 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by prop.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA13583 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:06:46 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA12605 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:06:46 -0700 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:06:46 -0700 Message-Id: <200004081706.KAA12605@sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > On Windows, GDI has full support for drawing to a window. Though controls > ARE windows, that's beside the point. Web controls don't have to be platform > controls. We all choose to build the corners we back ourselves into. There > is no reason other than wrong architectural choices for not being able to > support alpha compositing on platforms that can support it. And beyond that, Mozilla does have software compositing capability, contrary to Gerard's expectations. It simply isn't connected together yet. But even on X, you can run Demo 10 and see partially transparent animated GIFs running on top of a background animated GIF, with everything looking correct. The problem with PNG is that there was (and I think still is) no support for per- pixel alpha, and the fix for that will require some moderately global changes to the code. Check the relevant web pages for more info. But back to the Mac: I actually received a user report several hours before Brad's message came through yesterday, and he's just sent me screenshots. I should have them pasted together and online by tomorrow. (They look *really* nice. Well done, Brad and Mac IE guys!) Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 8 15:12:17 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10463; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:12:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id PAA25748 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:11:11 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp3.xs4all.nl (smtp3.xs4all.nl [194.109.127.49]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA25744 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:11:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gerard3 (gjuyn.xs4all.nl [194.109.48.191]) by smtp3.xs4all.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22074 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:11:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004082011.WAA22074@smtp3.xs4all.nl> From: "Gerard Juyn" To: PNG List Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:10:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-reply-to: <200004081706.KAA12605@sonic.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Date sent: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:06:46 -0700 From: Greg Roelofs > And beyond that, Mozilla does have software compositing capability, > contrary to Gerard's expectations. It simply isn't connected together > yet. But even on X, you can run Demo 10 and see partially transparent > animated GIFs running on top of a background animated GIF, with everything > looking correct. Ok. but GIF's only support on-off transparency anyway (or I must be missing something). There's no big trick in that. That can still be done with window-controls and the masked BitBlt. Ah well. I'll have a real close look when I start work on the mng-plugin. Gerard. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 8 15:12:22 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10473; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:12:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id PAA25754 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:11:12 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp3.xs4all.nl (smtp3.xs4all.nl [194.109.127.49]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA25750 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:11:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gerard3 (gjuyn.xs4all.nl [194.109.48.191]) by smtp3.xs4all.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22077 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:11:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004082011.WAA22077@smtp3.xs4all.nl> From: "Gerard Juyn" To: PNG List Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:10:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-reply-to: <001701bfa176$a46db7d0$0800a8c0@home.local> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List From: "Brad Pettit" Date sent: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:22:32 -0700 > Your defense has some holes in it. Even in MacOS, the high byte of a > 32-bit pixel is not used for alpha. A mask is supplied in a different > bitmap. Granted, MacOS Quickdraw has decent alpha capabilities, but if the > application code isn't designed to call it, an OS capability is useless. You must agree that the best place to do the composing would be in the OS GUI subsystem, as that holds the info which windows (or controls as windows) overlap which. Windows can do transparancy in the same way you describe for the Mac. Eg. through a mask-bitmap. But it's only 1-bit on-off transparancy. Why couldn't it support a full alpha-channel through an 8-bit bitmap? > On Windows, GDI has full support for drawing to a window. Though controls > ARE windows, that's beside the point. Web controls don't have to be > platform controls. We all choose to build the corners we back ourselves > into. There is no reason other than wrong architectural choices for not > being able to support alpha compositing on platforms that can support it. Well, I don't think MS is going to add a feature to their OS, so Netscape can do proper alpha-channel composing.... So they'll have to do it themselves. If the code is designed to handle it (as Greg suggests), that would indicate they already have a means of keeping z- order and related stuff of the different web-components on a page, and are painting everything on a single canvas, and thus a single window. Then there's nothing holding them back but time I guess. Gerard. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 8 15:22:43 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10586; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:22:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id PAA26097 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:21:40 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA26089 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:21:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000408202140.MIYH26983.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 13:21:40 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000408162159.01a39dd0@netmail.home.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netmail.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 16:21:59 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-Reply-To: <200004082011.WAA22074@smtp3.xs4all.nl> References: <200004081706.KAA12605@sonic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 10:10 PM 4/8/00 +0100, you wrote: >Date sent: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:06:46 -0700 >From: Greg Roelofs > >> And beyond that, Mozilla does have software compositing capability, >> contrary to Gerard's expectations. It simply isn't connected together >> yet. But even on X, you can run Demo 10 and see partially transparent >> animated GIFs running on top of a background animated GIF, with everything >> looking correct. > >Ok. but GIF's only support on-off transparency anyway (or I must be >missing something). There's no big trick in that. That can still be done >with window-controls and the masked BitBlt. You aren't missing something. A partially-transparent GIF is one in which some of the pixels are opaque and some of them are fully transparent. As opposed to a fully-transparent GIF that you use for a spacer. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 8 15:31:49 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10684; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:31:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id PAA26358 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:30:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA26354 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:30:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 23690 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2000 20:30:47 -0000 Received: from buzz.sonic.net (208.201.224.78) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 8 Apr 2000 20:30:47 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by buzz.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA21257 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 13:31:03 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id NAA25900 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 13:30:46 -0700 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 13:30:46 -0700 Message-Id: <200004082030.NAA25900@sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >> And beyond that, Mozilla does have software compositing capability, >> contrary to Gerard's expectations. It simply isn't connected together >> yet. But even on X, you can run Demo 10 and see partially transparent >> animated GIFs running on top of a background animated GIF, with everything >> looking correct. > Ok. but GIF's only support on-off transparency anyway (or I must be > missing something). You are; I believe it's called CSS. Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 8 16:11:07 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11097; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:11:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA27268 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:09:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA27264 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:09:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000408210953.NBJS26983.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:09:53 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000408171012.01154bd0@netmail.home.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netmail.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:10:12 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-Reply-To: <200004082030.NAA25900@sonic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 01:30 PM 4/8/00 -0700, you wrote: >>> And beyond that, Mozilla does have software compositing capability, >>> contrary to Gerard's expectations. It simply isn't connected together >>> yet. But even on X, you can run Demo 10 and see partially transparent >>> animated GIFs running on top of a background animated GIF, with everything >>> looking correct. > >> Ok. but GIF's only support on-off transparency anyway (or I must be >> missing something). > >You are; I believe it's called CSS. I don't think there's anything other than "visible" vs "hidden" in CSS (1, 2, or 3), but SVG does allow you to specify "opacity" of things that you draw (can you use a GIF to supply a fill pattern in SVG?). Where's "Demo 10"? Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 8 16:41:00 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11408; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:41:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA28280 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:39:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA28276 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:39:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 28130 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2000 21:39:48 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 8 Apr 2000 21:39:48 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA21491 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:39:51 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA27292 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:39:44 -0700 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:39:44 -0700 Message-Id: <200004082139.OAA27292@sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > I don't think there's anything other than "visible" vs "hidden" in > CSS (1, 2, or 3), but SVG does allow you to specify "opacity" of things > that you draw (can you use a GIF to supply a fill pattern in SVG?). OK, maybe this is another Netscape extension of some sort, but it's been there since early 1999, and I think even longer than that: I assumed the style attribute referred to CSS, but I haven't studied any of the revisions. > Where's "Demo 10"? http://lxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/webshell/tests/viewer/samples/test10.html Also in a pulldown menu in Mozilla. Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 8 16:42:03 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11430; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:42:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA28304 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:41:13 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA28300 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:41:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CHRIS (adsl-209-233-21-159.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with SMTP id <0FSP00KLVW784I@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 14:43:12 -0700 From: Chris Nokleberg Subject: RE: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-reply-to: <200004082011.WAA22077@smtp3.xs4all.nl> To: PNG List Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Well, I don't think MS is going to add a feature to their OS, so > Netscape can do proper alpha-channel composing.... So they'll have to > do it themselves. If the code is designed to handle it (as Greg > suggests), that would indicate they already have a means of keeping z- > order and related stuff of the different web-components on a page, and > are painting everything on a single canvas, and thus a single window. > Then there's nothing holding them back but time I guess. Windows 2000 (and maybe Windows 98 SE) has support for alpha-blending built into the GDI API. It's used by the new fading menus and cursor drop-shadow. I believe that some forms of PNG and JPEG decoding are also built in. Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 8 19:33:56 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13224; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 19:33:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id TAA02501 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 19:32:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from tux.w3.org (tux.w3.org [18.29.0.27]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA02497 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 19:32:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from w3.org (IDENT:root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tux.w3.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09230; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:32:01 -0400 Message-ID: <38EFCF79.54345F1E@w3.org> Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 02:31:53 +0200 From: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions References: <200004081706.KAA12605@sonic.net> <3.0.6.32.20000408162159.01a39dd0@netmail.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote: > > At 10:10 PM 4/8/00 +0100, you wrote: > >Date sent: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:06:46 -0700 > >From: Greg Roelofs > > > >> And beyond that, Mozilla does have software compositing capability, > >> contrary to Gerard's expectations. It simply isn't connected together > >> yet. But even on X, you can run Demo 10 and see partially transparent > >> animated GIFs running on top of a background animated GIF, with everything > >> looking correct. > > > >Ok. but GIF's only support on-off transparency anyway (or I must be > >missing something). > You aren't missing something. Yes he is ;-) That demo uses a new CSS property, opacity. So the *entire element* (in this case, an image element) is rendered ofscreen, this rendering given a single alpha value, and this is then vomposited. So for example you can have partly transparent text, and so forth. > > A partially-transparent GIF is one in which some of the pixels are opaque > and some of them are fully transparent. That isn't the definition that is being used here. The GIF isn't storing any alpha beyond 0 and 1, true, but the compositing of partial transparency values is indeed being demonstrated. -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 8 19:35:29 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13252; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 19:35:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id TAA02531 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 19:34:30 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from tux.w3.org (tux.w3.org [18.29.0.27]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA02527 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 19:34:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from w3.org (IDENT:root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tux.w3.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09339; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:34:30 -0400 Message-ID: <38EFD00E.BB405B9A@w3.org> Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 02:34:22 +0200 From: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions References: <3.0.6.32.20000408171012.01154bd0@netmail.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote: > > At 01:30 PM 4/8/00 -0700, you wrote: > >>> And beyond that, Mozilla does have software compositing capability, > >>> contrary to Gerard's expectations. It simply isn't connected together > >>> yet. But even on X, you can run Demo 10 and see partially transparent > >>> animated GIFs running on top of a background animated GIF, with everything > >>> looking correct. > > > >> Ok. but GIF's only support on-off transparency anyway (or I must be > >> missing something). > > > >You are; I believe it's called CSS. > > I don't think there's anything other than "visible" vs "hidden" in > CSS (1, 2, yes or 3) no >, but SVG does allow you to specify "opacity" of things > that you draw Yes. That property is being added to the general part of CSS 9ie you can use it everywhere), noy just to the SVG-specific part. > (can you use a GIF to supply a fill pattern in SVG?). You can, but GIF support isn't guaranteed to be there so it might not work. The two image formats that every conforming SVG implementation must support are JPEG JFIF, and PNG. -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sun Apr 9 02:10:53 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA17493; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 02:10:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id CAA11927 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 02:08:47 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA11923 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 02:08:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 29803 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2000 07:08:46 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 9 Apr 2000 07:08:46 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by prop.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA31267 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 00:08:47 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id AAA07129 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 00:08:46 -0700 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 00:08:46 -0700 Message-Id: <200004090708.AAA07129@sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: pngs-img.html as it *should* be seen Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List As promised, I've uploaded screenshots of alpha-transparency PNGs taken with Mac IE 5.0: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/pngs-img-ie5mac.html The page should be mirrored within an hour or two, but if you get the "sorry" page in the meantime, just click on the ftp link it provides. The page with half-scale JPEGs weighs in at about 130k, but the PNGs (full size) to which it links total more than a megabyte. They're interlaced, though, and they're worth the wait/weight. :-) Thanks to jim@publicbbs.com for the raw screenshots and to Brad and his gang for outstanding PNG support. Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sun Apr 9 03:25:11 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA18530; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 03:25:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA13541 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 03:24:17 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp8.xs4all.nl (smtp8.xs4all.nl [194.109.127.51]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA13535 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 03:24:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gerard3 (gjuyn.xs4all.nl [194.109.48.191]) by smtp8.xs4all.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26649 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:24:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004090824.KAA26649@smtp8.xs4all.nl> From: "Gerard Juyn" To: PNG List Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:22:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Netscape 6 initial impressions References: <200004082011.WAA22077@smtp3.xs4all.nl> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Date sent: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 14:43:12 -0700 From: Chris Nokleberg > Windows 2000 (and maybe Windows 98 SE) has support for alpha-blending > built into the GDI API. It's used by the new fading menus and cursor > drop-shadow. I believe that some forms of PNG and JPEG decoding are also > built in. Hi Chris, Thanks! That's good to hear. Is it also available to non-MS developers? If so, where can I find specs or such? Gerard. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sun Apr 9 03:25:22 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA18540; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 03:25:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA13540 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 03:24:17 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp8.xs4all.nl (smtp8.xs4all.nl [194.109.127.51]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA13530 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 03:24:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gerard3 (gjuyn.xs4all.nl [194.109.48.191]) by smtp8.xs4all.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26646 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:24:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004090824.KAA26646@smtp8.xs4all.nl> From: "Gerard Juyn" To: PNG List Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:22:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-reply-to: <38EFCF79.54345F1E@w3.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Date sent: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 02:31:53 +0200 From: Chris Lilley > > >Ok. but GIF's only support on-off transparency anyway (or I must be > > >missing something). > > > You aren't missing something. > > Yes he is ;-) > > That demo uses a new CSS property, opacity. So the *entire element* (in > this case, an image element) is rendered ofscreen, this rendering given a > single alpha value, and this is then vomposited. So for example you can > have partly transparent text, and so forth. > > A partially-transparent > GIF is one in which some of the pixels are opaque > and some of them are > fully transparent. Thanks for the info. I didn't know about that one. It's CSS3, isn't it? it may have been around unofficially, as Greg mentions, but it wasn't officially in CSS2 (so not likely in CSS1). But to stay on topic. It does mean that Mozilla has alpha-compositing capabilites. So it is just a matter of time and will to get proper PNG handling. Gerard. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sun Apr 9 03:47:01 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA18790; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 03:47:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA14075 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 03:46:05 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA14071 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 03:46:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CHRIS (adsl-209-233-21-159.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with SMTP id <0FSQ008RNR0OT6@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 01:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 01:48:48 -0700 From: Chris Nokleberg Subject: RE: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-reply-to: <200004090824.KAA26649@smtp8.xs4all.nl> To: PNG List Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > > Windows 2000 (and maybe Windows 98 SE) has support for alpha-blending > > built into the GDI API. It's used by the new fading menus and cursor > > drop-shadow. I believe that some forms of PNG and JPEG decoding are also > > built in. > > Hi Chris, > > Thanks! That's good to hear. Is it also available to non-MS developers? > If so, where can I find specs or such? > > Gerard. Go to http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/ -> Platform SDK -> Graphics and Multimedia Services -> Windows GDI -> Bitmaps -> About Bitmaps There links to "JPEG and PNG Extensions for Specific Bitmap Functions and Structures," and "Alpha Blending." From the former: Starting with the MicrosoftR WindowsR 98 and Windows 2000 operating systems, the StretchDIBits and SetDIBitsToDevice functions have been extended to allow JPEG and PNG images to be passed as the source image to printer devices. This extension is not intended as a means to supply general JPEG and PNG decompression to applications, but rather to allow applications to send JPEG- and PNG-compressed images directly to printers having hardware support for JPEG and PNG images. (copyright 2000 Microsoft Corporation) I thought it was more general at one point, but maybe it is of interest to the list anyway. Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sun Apr 9 10:41:24 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23000; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:41:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id KAA23933 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:40:20 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp8.xs4all.nl (smtp8.xs4all.nl [194.109.127.51]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA23929 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:40:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gerard3 (gjuyn.xs4all.nl [194.109.48.191]) by smtp8.xs4all.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07305 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:40:18 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004091540.RAA07305@smtp8.xs4all.nl> From: "Gerard Juyn" To: PNG List Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:39:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Netscape 6 initial impressions References: <200004090824.KAA26649@smtp8.xs4all.nl> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Date sent: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 01:48:48 -0700 From: Chris Nokleberg > Starting with the MicrosoftR WindowsR 98 and Windows 2000 operating > systems, the StretchDIBits and SetDIBitsToDevice functions have been > extended to allow JPEG and PNG images to be passed as the source image to > printer devices. This extension is not intended as a means to supply > general JPEG and PNG decompression to applications, but rather to allow > applications to send JPEG- and PNG-compressed images directly to printers > having hardware support for JPEG and PNG images. (copyright 2000 Microsoft > Corporation) This wouldn't be of much help when compositing on screen. However I did find a function called AlphaBlend, which cover what is needed. It's W98/W2000 only. And it talks about alpha-channels as if they're common use in WinAPI. Unfortunately, they distinctly forget to mention how and where such an alpha-channel needs to be defined. Can't find it in any of their bitmap-structures, and a full library search only results in the forementioned function and a load of DirectX and OpenGL stuff. Ah well, too bad then... Gerard -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 10 12:06:30 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10655; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:06:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id MAA03543 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:05:20 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA03485 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:05:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2iveagn.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.42.23]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA08188 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004101705.NAA08188@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:05:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: pngs-img.html as it *should* be seen In-reply-to: <200004090708.AAA07129@sonic.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 9 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Greg Roelofs [Greg Roelofs ] wrote [regarding pngs-img.html as it *should* be seen] > As promised, I've uploaded screenshots of alpha-transparency PNGs taken > with Mac IE 5.0: > > http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/pngs-img-ie5mac.html > The page with half-scale JPEGs weighs in at about 130k > Thanks to jim@publicbbs.com for the raw screenshots and to Brad and > his gang for outstanding PNG support. > > Greg The page inline JPG images never finished loading for me -- the second image (ice) in particular. The PNGs I did get by downloading. It's very exciting. Regards, soren andersen www.wonderstorm.com/techstuff/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 15 10:59:04 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12528; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 10:59:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id KAA14581 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 10:57:50 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA14576 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 10:57:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Sat Apr 15 08:57:35 2000 To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 07:57:35 -0800 From: "Richard W. Franzen" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: on X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: cool, PNG-aware site X-Sender-Ip: 24.27.213.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List There's a really nice PNG-aware site that will dynamically decompose images from the web (RGB, HSI, principal components, etc). You simply type in the URL for the image and the selected algorithm is performed. The site is basically a German neurophysics research organization, but color and color perception is one of their research areas. It is at: http://axon.physik.uni-bremen.de/~rdh/online_calc/hsi/ BTW, I have updated my Interactive Color Wheel to handle 3 modes of color to grey conversion (luma, luminance, and average). Since some of the color blocks sort by the grey weighting, it is quite interesting to observe how these techniques function visually. This page is at: http://rocq.home.att.net/SIHwheel.html -- -- Rich -- http://rocq.home.att.net/pngBase.html -- --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 15 15:05:41 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14968; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:05:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id PAA20342 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:04:47 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA20338 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:04:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ivebgn.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.46.23]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA15131 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004152004.QAA15131@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:04:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: cool, PNG-aware site In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 15 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Richard W. Franzen [] wrote [regarding cool, PNG-aware site] > There's a really nice PNG-aware site that will dynamically decompose > images from the web (RGB, HSI, principal components, etc). You simply > type in the URL for the image and the selected algorithm is performed. > The site is basically a German neurophysics research organization, but > color and color perception is one of their research areas. It is at: > > http://axon.physik.uni-bremen.de/~rdh/online_calc/hsi/ > That's a very cool site. I like the idea a lot. soren andersen -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sun Apr 16 10:29:27 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23326; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:29:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id KAA17261 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:28:19 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA17257 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:28:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 12965 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2000 15:28:18 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 16 Apr 2000 15:28:18 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by prop.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20578 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:28:18 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id IAA29871 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:28:18 -0700 Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:28:18 -0700 Message-Id: <200004161528.IAA29871@sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: Re: cool, PNG-aware site Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >> There's a really nice PNG-aware site that will dynamically decompose >> images from the web (RGB, HSI, principal components, etc). You simply >> type in the URL for the image and the selected algorithm is performed. >> The site is basically a German neurophysics research organization, but >> color and color perception is one of their research areas. It is at: >> >> http://axon.physik.uni-bremen.de/~rdh/online_calc/hsi/ > That's a very cool site. I like the idea a lot. Me too. It also does contouring and a bunch of other things. Check out http://axon.physik.uni-bremen.de/~rdh/online_calc/storage/16503/ Of course, it also provides a log of who did what and with what image, so curb those naughty impulses... http://axon.physik.uni-bremen.de/~rdh/online_calc/storage/ Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 17 01:37:43 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA00062; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:37:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id BAA11576 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:35:39 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail0.mailsender.net (mail0.mailsender.net [209.132.1.30]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA11572 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:35:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from libretto (154.5.156.22) by mail0.mailsender.net (5.1.012) id 38F511EC000BAD8C for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 23:35:21 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000417001820.00695a28@mail.schaik.com> X-Sender: willemschaik@mail.schaik.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:18:20 -0600 To: PNG List From: Willem van Schaik Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000408162159.01a39dd0@netmail.home.com> References: <200004082011.WAA22074@smtp3.xs4all.nl> <200004081706.KAA12605@sonic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 16:21 08-04-00 -0400, Glenn wrote: >At 10:10 PM 4/8/00 +0100, ??? wrote: >>Ok. but GIF's only support on-off transparency anyway (or I must be >>missing something). There's no big trick in that. That can still be done >>with window-controls and the masked BitBlt. > >You aren't missing something. It's maybe interesting to note that when I developed alpha-channel support for the W3C Amaya browser (I submitted it to W3C, but it never saw production) I managed to get very reasonable alpha-mixing, just by using a couple of BitBlt functions. My algortithm used a 16-level alpha-channel, so it displayed some banding effects, but not too bad. At least much better than just on/off :-). Have a look at http://www.schaik.com/png/antialias.html for some illustrations. Willem v a n S c h a i k ------------------------------------------------------------------------ mailto:willem@schaik.com http://www.schaik.com/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 17 03:36:53 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA01280; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 03:36:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA14247 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 03:35:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from njord.bart.nl (njord.bART.nl [194.158.170.15]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA14243 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 03:35:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gerard3 (Cable49.202.eneco.bart.nl [195.38.202.49] (may be forged)) by njord.bart.nl (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA17149 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:35:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004170835.KAA17149@njord.bart.nl> From: "Gerard Juyn" To: PNG List Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:35:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-reply-to: <3.0.3.32.20000417001820.00695a28@mail.schaik.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000408162159.01a39dd0@netmail.home.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Date sent: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:18:20 -0600 From: Willem van Schaik > It's maybe interesting to note that when I developed alpha-channel support > for the W3C Amaya browser (I submitted it to W3C, but it never saw > production) I managed to get very reasonable alpha-mixing, just by using a > couple of BitBlt functions. My algortithm used a 16-level alpha-channel, > so it displayed some banding effects, but not too bad. At least much > better than just on/off :-). Hi Willem, This is interesting! But I'm wondering how you blend the background and foreground using nothing but BitBlt. If one has access to the background that's no problem. But if one doesn't!?!?! Without access the blending will have to be done by the function that's ultimately rendering the info on the screen, which in basic Windows usage (not speaking DirectX or OpenGL or the likes), means having Windows do it. And at least on Win95/NT there's no provision for alpha- channel. There's appearantly functionality on Win98/2000, but I haven't been able to figure it out yet. Gerard. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 18 14:01:35 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19809; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:01:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id NAA10905 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:52:23 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail0.mailsender.net (mail0.mailsender.net [209.132.1.30]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA10901 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:52:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from libretto (154.5.156.169) by mail0.mailsender.net (5.1.012) id 38FBFC700000BC16 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 06:39:22 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000418012842.006a4300@mail.schaik.com> X-Sender: willemschaik@mail.schaik.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:28:42 -0600 To: PNG List From: Willem van Schaik Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-Reply-To: <200004170835.KAA17149@njord.bart.nl> References: <3.0.3.32.20000417001820.00695a28@mail.schaik.com> <3.0.6.32.20000408162159.01a39dd0@netmail.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 10:35 17-04-00 +0100, Gerard wrote: > >This is interesting! But I'm wondering how you blend the background >and foreground using nothing but BitBlt. If one has access to the >background that's no problem. But if one doesn't!?!?! > True, true. In the case of Amaya, I had also access to the background bitmap. What I did with the alpha values, was that I reduced them first to a value of 0, 1, 3, 7, 15, 31, 63, 127, 128, 192, 224, 240, 248, 252, 254, 255. This means a string of 8 bits with one group of zero's and one group of ones. Then by and-ing this with the image and not-and-ing it with the background, followed by or-ing both, you get quite acceptable alpha-ed results. A nice side effect is that even when you have weird color models like 5-6-5 (r-g-b) you can create an alpha bitmap and then only do the and-ing/or-ing with the background bitmap, when the images gets repositioned. Have fun, Willem v a n S c h a i k ------------------------------------------------------------------------ mailto:willem@schaik.com http://www.schaik.com/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 18 14:51:44 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20391; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:51:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id OAA12569 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:43:07 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA12565 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:43:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ive67c.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.24.236]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA00685 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004181943.PAA00685@granger.mail.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:43:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: new How-To for PNG Web authoring X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Hello Friends of PNG, I have got some new content up on my Web site at http://www.wonderstorm.com/techstuff/ which addresses the problem of browser support for PNG further. Some readers may recall that I have created an approach for using SSI to serve PNGs as BG graphics on Web pages (the url above points to that). Now I have also added a "Pure Perl" CGI script approach ("Approach No. 2" further down the page url above) which is usable on servers like Tripod's cgi-bin that allow user CGI scripts written in perl but do not have their general httpd servers set up to properly support the PNG (through the correct MIM-type response headers). Other free services exist (although the list is short -- and is on my site -- if anyone here knows of any additions that should be made to it pls advise me) in addition to Tripod that allow the user CGI scripts. In those other cases as well, my basic script logic might work. Please also note that I do not by making this available feel that it is preferable to use such a hack rather than get the server admins to enable correct PNG serving! but it is THEIR loss in terms of the CPU expenses of the Perl / CGI processes that will be unleashed by users of my scripts; I have written many times to servers (hosting providers) asking them to enable PNG MIME type "image.png") and many of the larger ones simply do not respond in a meaningful way. So this "serves" them right AFAIAC. I still encourage readers who use PNG to take up the righteous cause and write email to server customer support / admins about it if they discover they have to (even if they can) use my script. Of course, I write about my script here also to note its logic (additional functionality) which allows the serving of PNG *or* GIF versions of a image inline based on client support (implies the set-up of a "paired PNG/GIF collection" of files maintained on the server, I think most readers of this list will grasp what i mean by that but go read my Web page if you do not). Best Regards, soren andersen - "Everything that I've learned about computers at MIT I have boiled down into three principles: - Unix: You think it won't work, but if you find the right wizard, he can make it work. - Macintosh: You think it will work, but it won't. - PC/Windows: You think it won't work, and it won't." -- Philip Greenspun -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 18 15:07:35 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20547; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:07:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id OAA13261 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:58:46 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA13257 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:58:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ive67c.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.24.236]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA05676 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004181958.PAA05676@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:58:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: new How-To for PNG Web authoring X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 18 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be me [Soren Andersen ] wrote [regarding new How-To for PNG Web authoring] > Now I have also added a "Pure Perl" CGI script approach ("Approach No. > 2" further down the page url above) which is usable on servers like Tripod's > cgi-bin that allow user CGI scripts written in perl but do not have their > general httpd servers set up to properly support the PNG (through the > correct MIM[sic]-type response headers). I neglected in my initial message to provide a url for a demonstration page that readers of this List could go see. That is, I have a test site on Tripod in addition to my real development site on wonderstorm.com. Here's a url: http://catalpa88.tripod.com/cgi-bin/test_home.html Regards, soren andersen -- Computers are the tools of the devil. It is as simple as that. There is no monotheism strong enough that it cannot be shaken by Unix or any Microsoft product. The devil is real. He lives inside C programs. - Philip Greenspun ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 18 18:15:32 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22060; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:15:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id SAA19913 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:06:41 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA19909 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:06:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ive71s.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.28.60]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA31379 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004182306.TAA31379@smtp6.mindspring.com> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:06:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: new How-To for PNG Web authoring In-reply-to: <200004181958.PAA05676@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 18 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Soren Andersen wrote [regarding Re: new How-To for PNG Web authoring] > On 18 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be me [Soren Andersen > ] wrote [regarding new How-To for PNG Web > authoring] > > > Now I have also added a "Pure Perl" CGI script approach ("Approach No. > > 2" further down the page url above) which is usable on servers like Tripod's > > cgi-bin that allow user CGI scripts written in perl but do not have their > > general httpd servers set up to properly support the PNG (through the > > correct MIM[sic]-type response headers). Aaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhh! The cgi script-driven IMG SRC technique BREAKS ON MSIE of COURSE! So sorry everyone. blah! fooey! (it works real good on netscrape though!) MSIE will not display the image even though it will say it is getting it from the server. Apparently it *must* have a SRC= attribute that ends in ".png" or it chokes ... consistent with it not reporting to the server that it will accept MIME type "image/png". The old code i adapted never showed this problem but today I got a good lesson in what happens when one makes assumptions. The full explanation and story is too long to go into now, but rest assured I was testing with MSIE (5, on WinNT) all along and everything *seemed* to be working. Until a fix turns up etc., thanks for your attention and all ... soren andersen -- "Some lawyers have been telling people that you have to get permission before you link to something. That's a terrible affront to free speech." - Tim Berners-Lee, inventor of the World Wide Web -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 18 18:31:13 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22127; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:31:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id SAA20236 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:22:56 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [206.125.69.82]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA20232 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:22:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vader.boutell.com by boutell.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA32294 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:27:55 -0700 Received: from localhost (boutell@localhost) by vader.boutell.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA18760 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:26:56 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:26:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Boutell To: PNG List Subject: Re: new How-To for PNG Web authoring In-Reply-To: <200004182306.TAA31379@smtp6.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Soren Andersen wrote: > Aaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhh! > > The cgi script-driven IMG SRC technique BREAKS ON MSIE of COURSE! > > So sorry everyone. blah! fooey! (it works real good on netscrape though!) > > MSIE will not display the image even though it will say it is getting it from > the server. Apparently it *must* have a SRC= attribute that ends in ".png" > or it chokes ... consistent with it not reporting to the server that it will > accept MIME type "image/png". > > The old code i adapted never showed this problem but today I got a good > lesson in what happens when one makes assumptions. The full explanation > and story is too long to go into now, but rest assured I was testing with > MSIE (5, on WinNT) all along and everything *seemed* to be working. Have you tried writing it like this: /cgi-bin/myprogram/dummy.png So that the browsers that need to see an extension see one? The web server will deliver the script *even though* there is extra junk in the path. The extra junk comes through as the PATH_INFO environment variable and can be ignored. This works reliably on Apache. My apologies if this is completely redundant. I have not read your previous mails, but thought this technique might be of assistance. -- Thomas Boutell Boutell.Com, Inc. http://www.boutell.com/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 19 03:21:38 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA25106; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 03:21:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA03385 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 03:20:23 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA03381 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 03:20:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ivea8d.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.41.13]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA32197 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004190820.EAA32197@granger.mail.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:20:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: new How-To for PNG Web authoring References: <200004182306.TAA31379@smtp6.mindspring.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 18 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Thomas Boutell wrote [regarding Re: new How-To for PNG Web authoring] > On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Soren Andersen wrote: > > > Aaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhh! > > > > The cgi script-driven IMG SRC technique BREAKS ON MSIE of COURSE! > Have you tried writing it like this: > > /cgi-bin/myprogram/dummy.png > > So that the browsers that need to see an extension see one? The web > server will deliver the script *even though* there is extra junk > in the path. The extra junk comes through as the PATH_INFO environment > variable and can be ignored. This works reliably on Apache. > > My apologies if this is completely redundant. I have not read your > previous mails, but thought this technique might be of assistance. It is not redundant, not irrelevant, and in fact is very reassuring at the end of a strenuous day of coding, because I was investigating this line of thought myself, with an O'Reilly book at my elbow and some thoughts about the extra path instead of the query string being the way to go (and using a dummy filename extension). And I may still make the script work that way. I'm happy to know you thought of this too. However. The doggone thing works and maybe the very best of strategies in this case was what I did: I put the thing aside for several hours and went out to dinner with my gf and then worked on something else. And when I came back to it I found the bug I had introduced while trying to debug on my other server: (I was right, it WAS working in MSIE previously -- I am also reassured to know that i hadn't hallucinated that) ... it was probably a cached copy of the image showing itself to me in the other browser (Netscape) that had me fooled: I had disabled my own script after making needed changes by leaving something in that shouldn't have been there for the Tripod server. Perl was never finding the image files, simply, since it was being given imaginary path info. So it isn't a seriously lamentable shortcoming of MSIE (which has so many as it is already, so) after all -- that's GOOD! MSIE gets the PNG and displays it fine on my version, so does Netscrape, now I know that probably there is much work to be done on the script but at least it seems it wasn't all effort down the drain, there is some prospect of it being useful to somebody. Best regards -- thanks Thomas, soren andersen -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 19 08:43:56 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27100; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:43:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id IAA11253 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:42:37 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [206.125.69.82]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA11249 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:42:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vader.boutell.com by boutell.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA02034 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 06:47:46 -0700 Received: from localhost (boutell@localhost) by vader.boutell.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA06459 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 06:46:38 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 06:46:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Boutell To: PNG List Subject: Re: new How-To for PNG Web authoring In-Reply-To: <200004190820.EAA32197@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Neat! Could you send me your actual article on the subject again, then? I missed it and now I wish I hadn't. -- Thomas Boutell Boutell.Com, Inc. http://www.boutell.com/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 19 08:44:00 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27110; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:43:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id IAA11277 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:43:05 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [206.125.69.82]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA11272 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:43:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vader.boutell.com by boutell.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA02039 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 06:48:13 -0700 Received: from localhost (boutell@localhost) by vader.boutell.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA06496 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 06:47:06 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 06:47:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Boutell To: PNG List Subject: Apology In-Reply-To: <200004190820.EAA32197@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Ahrgh. Sorry for my repeated accidental replies to png-list. I'll be good from now on. -- Thomas Boutell Boutell.Com, Inc. http://www.boutell.com/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 19 10:01:32 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28125; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:01:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id KAA13797 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:00:10 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA13793 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:00:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 25109 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 15:00:08 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 19 Apr 2000 15:00:08 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25843 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 07:59:57 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id IAA08672 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:00:08 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:00:08 -0700 Message-Id: <200004191500.IAA08672@sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: PNG support in Outlook? Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Given the integration of PNG support into MS Office apps, I assume the Outlook mail client supports PNG, too (e.g., for HTML e-mail with embedded images). Can anybody confirm that, though? (And if so, is Outlook normally a part of Office or a standalone product?) I'm also curious about Eudora and any other HTML-aware mail clients people use (not counting web browsers)... Thanks, Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 19 10:27:04 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28484; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:27:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id KAA15129 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:26:07 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from njord.bart.nl (njord.bart.nl [194.158.170.15]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15125 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:26:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gerard3 (Cable49.202.eneco.bart.nl [195.38.202.49] (may be forged)) by njord.bart.nl (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA88785 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:26:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004191526.RAA88785@njord.bart.nl> From: "Gerard Juyn" To: PNG List Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:25:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: PNG support in Outlook? In-reply-to: <200004191500.IAA08672@sonic.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Date sent: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:00:08 -0700 From: Greg Roelofs > I'm also curious about Eudora and any other HTML-aware mail clients people > use (not counting web browsers)... Pegasus Mail v3.12b (Win32) does not natively support PNG. It does display JPEG and GIF, and the Windows formats BMP, EMF and WMF. It is HTML enabled, which I'm not too crazy about though. It can be instructed to use external programs to display other file- formats, but definitely not natively in it's "HTML"-window. Gerard -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 19 14:10:35 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00844; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:10:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id OAA22441 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:08:38 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA22437 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:08:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ive7uo.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.31.216]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA19307 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004191908.PAA19307@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:08:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: new How-To for PNG Web authoring References: <200004190820.EAA32197@granger.mail.mindspring.net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by ccrc.wustl.edu id OAA22438 Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 19 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Thomas Boutell wrote [regarding Re: new How-To for PNG Web authoring] > Neat! Could you send me your actual article on the subject again, then? > I missed it and now I wish I hadn't. Well since the previous messages I started out by posting simply state much the same thing as my Web page for the program and then track my process of failure, dejection and redemption () through debugging it (which turned up a really important and subtle Perl 'feature' relating to comparison operations used on floating-point value in Perl, BTW), I thought I would just reply to your request by posting what is basically the text- tified version of the Web page at http://www.wonderstorm.com/techstuff/PerlTripod.html here: --------------------------------------------------- CGI for PNGs script CGI in Perl solution for Tripod A very few free Web hosting services ("servers") allow user-installed CGI scripts. In those cases, it is possible that PNG images can used for inline image and tiled page backgrounds by the use of a CGI program written in Perl even if the Web server configuration is not PNG-aware. I have named this Perl program "sbvrsn.pl" ("SUBVERSION") Important: the script is not named "subversion" because it accomplishes the undermining of a good and just order of things, but rather because it enables goodness and furthers justice by undermining a status-quo that seems to , from my user perspective, based in a industry-wide lackadaisical tendency on the part of server admins who work on large Web hosting services, who could, ordinarily (i.e. on Apache) enable proper MIME-types configuration of their server for PNG (in a short set of commands that might take 2 minutes at the outside to accomplish). How it works: the code below is placed in the HTML document wherever use of a PNG/GIF image is desired -- in place of the ordinary IMG SRC= tag. This script as presented implies the maintenance of a collection of "paired" PNG and GIF file sets -- alternate versions of a single image that can served in either format. The inline HTML that works with this CGI script consists of the standard HTML for inclusion of an inline image with the SRC attribute of the image tag pointing to the CGI URL + the filename argument instead of the ordinary plain server path specification. Any other attributes normally applicable to the IMG tag may used (try SUPPRESS=true). What is shown here is for demonstrative purposes only; however, it is suggested that the image WIDTH and HEIGHT attributes always included. Important! -- Tripod users must place the image files they wish to use in the /cgi-bin/ directory on Tripod's Web space server. No files of any sort outside of those located in the cgi-bin directory can accessed or used in Perl scripts on Tripod. known free Web hosts allowing some user CGI scripts Tripod 11 mb www.tripod.com My CGI Server 2 mb www.mycgiserver.com Eosnet Communications as needed www.eosnet.com Freeshells no limit www.freeshells.net Virtual Avenue 20 mb www.virtualave.net World Zone 12 mb www.worldzone.net [ C A P T I O N ] wonderstorm.com does not endorse any of the listed services and this listing is offered for information purposes only. in particular, wonderstorm.com has not evaluated general usability of any of the services except Tripod. further, we warn you, the reader, that each service´s "Terms of Service" and "Privacy Disclosure Statement" should read and carefully thought over before submitting any user application information. The CGI script written in Perl -- sbvrsn.pl Copy-and-Paste the text below into a new text file, then upload to the /cgi-bin/ directory of your server. Remember that the user may need to set filesystem attributes (UNIX permissions) on this file (not necessary on Tripod's CGI servers) to make it executable after uploading. "chmod 755" is usually appropriate. === WATCH FOR EMAIL WRAPPING! ==== #!/usr/local/bin/perl # # Author name: soren andersen, soren@wonderstorm.com # Creation date: 04/18/2000 # (c) 2000 Soren Andersen. All rights reserved. # This is Free Software. No warrantee at all either # express or implied is given. # # Description: # Use PNGs on our Tripod server use vars qw | $fileSpec $sendBin $typExtn $fBytes $prefixDir |; $typExtn = 'gif'; $prefixDir = 'gif/'; if ($fileSpec = $ENV{'QUERY_STRING'}) { $fileSpec =~ s#%([\dA-Fa-f][\dA-Fa-f])#pack ("C", hex($1))#eg; $fileSpec .= &PBrows(); $fileSpec = $prefixDir . $fileSpec; die "No file!" unless ($fBytes = -s $fileSpec); $typExtn = substr ($fileSpec, length($fileSpec) - 3); } else { die "Could not get QUERY_STRING on server"; } print "Status: 200 OK\n"; print "Date: " . $ENV{'DATE_GMT'} . "\n"; print "Content-length: $fBytes\n"; print "Content-location: /cgi-bin/$fileSpec\n"; print "Content-type: image/" . $typExtn . "\n\n"; open (IMGBIN,"$fileSpec") or die "No Go! $fileSpec\n$!"; binmode IMGBIN; read (IMGBIN, $sendBin,$fBytes); close IMGBIN; print $sendBin; sub DirChoose { $prefixDir = (shift eq '.png')? 'png/':'gif/'; } sub PBrows { my $Invite_Explicitly = $ENV{'HTTP_ACCEPT'}; my $Dog = $ENV{'HTTP_USER_AGENT'}; # like: $ReqType = '.gif'; # Mozilla/4.06 [en] (WinNT; U) # or: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) if ($Invite_Explicitly and $Invite_Explicitly =~ /image\/(x?\-?png)/i) { # FIRST, simply ASK if the client WANTS PNGs! # HOWEVER MSIE DOESN'T KNOW THAT IT WANTS PNGs!!! $ReqType = '.png'; # might allow plugin support for old browsers, # but doesn't work with IMG tag anyway } elsif ($Invite_Explicitly) { # do browser string sorting - UGLY! if ($Dog =~ m#^(\w+)\/([0-9]\.[0-9]*) [\[|\(]#g) { $NStr = $1; $Nflo = $2; } else { return '.gif'; } my $bowser = ($Dog =~ m#MSIE#)? 'IE':'NP'; if ($bowser eq 'NP') { $ReqType = ($Nflo >= 4.04)? '.png':'.gif'; } elsif ($bowser eq 'IE') { $ReqType = ($Nflo > 3.99)? '.png':'.gif'; } } &DirChoose($ReqType); return $ReqType; } __END__ ==== cut ===== -------------------------------------------- That's it! It has been through a lot more work this morning and I have added the set- up that the PNGs and GIFs are stored in separate DIRs. To digress for a moment: I have never had similar projects set up like that before and have always wanted to -- sometimes. I believe it is a matter, finally, of personal taste. The point is (to be explicatory for people new to this idea): whatever conversion tool or system you use to make PNGs that can replace the GIFs on a Web site, one had better be able to check and qwuickly determine that all the needed PNGs are there, or some visitors will get no image. best, soren andersen -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 19 14:23:12 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00984; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:23:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id OAA22840 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:22:15 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA22835 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:22:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CHRIS (adsl-209-233-21-159.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with SMTP id <0FTA00B6P1E93N@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:44:50 -0700 From: Chris Nokleberg Subject: RE: PNG support in Outlook? In-reply-to: <200004191500.IAA08672@sonic.net> To: PNG List Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Given the integration of PNG support into MS Office apps, I assume the > Outlook mail client supports PNG, too (e.g., for HTML e-mail with embedded > images). Can anybody confirm that, though? (And if so, is > Outlook normally > a part of Office or a standalone product?) Outlook 2000 (part of the Office suite) handles PNG in HTML e-mail, although when you choose Insert->Image .png isn't one of the available types. I think the quality of support is about the same as IE5. I'm not sure about Outlook Express, which is bundled with IE, but I imagine it is no different. If it matters, I'm using W2K. Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 19 18:58:07 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03142; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:58:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id SAA01377 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:56:14 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA01373 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:56:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000419235615.EYUN23916.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:56:15 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000419195630.01b96360@netmail.home.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netmail.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:56:30 -0400 To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Accuweather to switch to PNG next month Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Accuweather is switching to PNG May 12th according to http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-1713278.html Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 19 19:26:51 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03276; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:26:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id TAA02147 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:25:53 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA02143 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:25:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 7001 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2000 00:25:52 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 20 Apr 2000 00:25:52 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA31606 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:25:41 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id RAA04895 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:25:52 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:25:52 -0700 Message-Id: <200004200025.RAA04895@sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Accuweather to switch to PNG next month Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Accuweather is switching to PNG May 12th according to > http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-1713278.html Specifically, they're switching to PNG for images they send to customers. The web site will still be GIF-based--they've already got a Unisys license for that, IIRC. Btw, Evan wasn't sure whether there was enough there to run the story (he couldn't get official statements out of Yahoo, Disney, etc.), and I told him I didn't have any statistics on the number of "big name" sites that have switched in part or in whole, either--if anything, what I've seen in my own peculiar, limited web-surfing suggests that the big guys haven't switched and don't feel any need to do so. (That comment got quoted in some way that didn't quite match my intent, but overall the tone was correct.) What did push him over the edge, I think, was my comments about the recent bright spots in browserland: Mac IE 5.0, iCab 1.9 beta, Mozilla 2000-04-13 (that is, CVS sources--not M15), etc. I've recently added four pages of alpha-PNG screenshots to the site, so stop by and have a look at what PNGs *should* look like. The new pages are linked under the "PNGs with IMG" bullet and have little red "New" icons next to them. Greg P.S. Slashdot discussion today, as inaccurate as ever: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/04/18/1949239&mode=nested&threshold=0 -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 19 21:47:31 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA03802; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:47:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id VAA06167 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:46:09 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA06162 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:46:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Wed Apr 19 19:46:01 2000 To: "PNG List" Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:46:01 -0800 From: "Richard W. Franzen" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: on X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: PNG support in Outlook? X-Sender-Ip: 24.27.213.6 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Outlook Express v5.00.2314.1300 supports PNG. I sent an HTML message which contained a 16-bit greyscale PNG in an "Given the integration of PNG support into MS Office apps, I assume the >Outlook mail client supports PNG, too (e.g., for HTML e-mail with embedded >images). Can anybody confirm that, though? (And if so, is Outlook normally >a part of Office or a standalone product?) > >Thanks, > Greg --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Thu Apr 20 09:39:18 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07423; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:39:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id JAA23244 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:37:51 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA23240 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:37:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 32135 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2000 14:37:50 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 20 Apr 2000 14:37:50 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by prop.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA03141 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 07:37:50 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id HAA26384 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 07:37:49 -0700 Received: from coruisk.jbowler.com (coruisk.jbowler.com [63.204.14.138]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA11778 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:40:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: by coruisk.jbowler.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 23:40:06 -0700 Message-ID: <769C76CB96284941A1CE0C3AFB5291910D97@coruisk.jbowler.com> From: John Bowler To: PNG List Subject: RE: PNG support in Outlook? Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 23:40:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List From: Greg >Given the integration of PNG support into MS Office apps, >I assume the Outlook mail client supports PNG, too (e.g., >for HTML e-mail with embedded images). This is sent from Outlook 2000, but I chose plain text format because I strongly suspect I will be flamed (correctly) for sending HTML formatted email to a DL (and I know, from experience, that I will not be thanked for sending RTF formatted email either.) The nature of the support you get depends on whether you choose to use the Outlook built in editor or Word to edit your email messages, but both will support insert of a PNG. My evidence is that Outlook will also dispatch the PNG to a willing recipient (Word definately will), however that may be spurious - my test was entirely confined to my local Exchange server... >Can anybody confirm that, though? I would say the support is fairly complete (see my response to the last question for why I say fairly...) >(And if so, is Outlook normally a part of Office or a standalone product?) It's available standalone, but is part of the suites in 2000 - see http://www.microsoft.com/office/order/suitegde.htm >I'm also curious about Eudora and any other HTML-aware mail clients people >use (not counting web browsers)... Well, there's the problem... Even if *your* email client supports PNG you can pretty much guarantee that your recipient's does not. Support in ucbmail is at best incomplete :-) If you develop email clients you rapidly find that not only your competitors products (and you *do* need to work with these) fail to support PNG but, horror, shock, so does your previous version. And 80% of your customers are using your previous version :-) The compatibility problem is almost insuperable. Notice the widespread use of HTML email? (Curiously a lot of the spam I receive is HTML, but absolutely none of the useful stuff - it's either plain text or RTF.) It actually seems even more difficult to introduce new technology to email than it is to the web - and the web is mind numbingly difficult to change compared to a less open system - even something like MS Office which has enormous compatibility requirements. So a client "supports" PNG by offering *both* PNG and some other, compatible, format. That's like the plain text support - send both the HTML (or RTF) and the plain text. The plain text recipient sees the plain text and a simply enormous blob of, how do I put it, ASCII (or MIME if you are being polite.) The PNG may look nicer, but the message is twice the size. Sorry, I gave up. Compatibility *is* paramount for email. I send plain text. John Bowler -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Thu Apr 20 14:08:51 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09784; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 14:08:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id OAA01639 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 14:07:30 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA01635 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 14:07:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ive7h5.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.30.37]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA01762 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:07:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004201907.PAA01762@granger.mail.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:07:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Interesting GIF/PNG filesize results X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Hello, On the horribly hasty cobbled-together page at http://catalpa88.tripod.com/cgi-bin/test_home.html there is a link to "{HYPERLINK ""}a collection of Web page graphics." That opens a new browser window that displays a lot of W3 page widgets (little icons etc -- buttons for navigation design) in PNG-GIF pairs (like what I have been talking about in another thread on this List). I'd like to invite (tremble) readers to go check it out. I tremble because I know Greg's browser is perennially allergic to my pages' JavaScript -- sorry Greg. The list is Perl-generated (not in real-time) ... that's not of interest here, i ramble ... in any case, the list displays results of file size comparisons between the PNG and GIF versions of images. Some are very good and others very bad. I'd like to describe briefly how I made the conversions. The images are from StarOffice's Web creation collection (which just seemed, composed as I recall mostly of GIFs, just ripe for batch conversion to PNG some time ago when I was testing systems for doing that task in an optimal way). Yesterday I back-converted (I had stored only PNGs and threw away the GIFs) the PNGs to GIFs and catalogued them and uploaded them. BTW, the page URL that loads in the opened window is http://catalpa88.tripod.com/cgi-bin/Apr20_2000.html for anyone who turns off js or tries and finds something incompatible on their page. One more interesting and in fact seriously puzzling aspect of this page cited here is that the PNGs display fine in both MSIE (5) and Netscape (4.06). They shouldn't. As per my other messages (on CGI) yesterday, the tripod server doesn't know about the image/png MIME type. Therefore my other, non-CGI, javascript-employing method for building a pageful of PNGs should be breaking in this case (on this server). But it is not. A plain IMG SRC tag does, but these images display for me. When I investigate in Netscape, i find that trying to open anf PNG image on the page in a new window (right-click context menu) displays the header of the PNG file instead of an image (the recognizable signature amid the garbage of binary bytes displayed as ascii)! proving that the server is telling the client that the information is of media type "text/html". Weirder and weirder.Is there a job title "Profession Can-of-Worms Opener"? If so, I think I am eminently qualified for a high-paying position of that sort :). I seem to find copious crawlies everytime I investigate too deeply into how browsers work. Thanks for your interest, soren andersen -- Ecommerce is at once mind-numbingly boring and terrifyingly difficult. It turns out to be a miracle that most businesses operate successfully at all. With ecommerce, people start demanding that all the business systems that have been up 8 hours a day, 5 days a week with human intervention now be available 24x7 and be fully automated. The worst thing about building ecommerce systems is that nobody will notice if you do the job right. - Philip Greenspun -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Thu Apr 20 23:32:20 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13010; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:32:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id XAA16468 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:30:32 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from hermes.med-web.com (mail.med-web.com [207.175.164.123]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA16464 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:30:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from med-web.com (dialin005.med-web.com [207.2.113.5]) by hermes.med-web.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01770 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:30:30 -0500 Message-ID: <38FFD908.A3757254@med-web.com> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:28:56 -0500 From: Jason Summers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Interesting GIF/PNG filesize results References: <200004201907.PAA01762@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Soren Andersen wrote: > > ... > One more interesting and in fact seriously puzzling aspect of this page cited here is that the PNGs > display fine in both MSIE (5) and Netscape (4.06). They shouldn't. As per my other messages > (on CGI) yesterday, the tripod server doesn't know about the image/png MIME type. Therefore > my other, non-CGI, javascript-employing method for building a pageful of PNGs should be > breaking in this case (on this server). But it is not. A plain IMG SRC tag does, but these images > display for me. For images embedded in a web page with the tag, Netscape ignores the MIME type and determines the image type by magic number (the first few bytes of the file). You could even give your PNG documents a MIME type of image/gif and it would work. This is arguably acceptable browser behavior, since the set of supported image formats is small and well-defined. MSIE does *approximately* the same thing in this situation, but I'm sure it's not that simple. Generally speaking, if MSIE sees the MIME type "text/plain" or "application/octet-stream", it assumes something is wrong and tries to figure out a "better" type by using a complex tangle of heuristics involving the "file extension", the actual bytes in the file, the registered file types on the local system, the available plugins and ActiveX controls, the plugins installed in *Netscape*, and probably other things. It may also override other MIME types in extreme cases, I'm not sure. > When I investigate in Netscape, i find that trying to open anf PNG image on the > page in a new window (right-click context menu) displays the header of the PNG file instead of > an image (the recognizable signature amid the garbage of binary bytes displayed as ascii)! > proving that the server is telling the client that the information is of media type "text/html". Or text/plain. -- Jason Summers jason@med-web.com http://home.mieweb.com/jason/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 21 11:56:18 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18220; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 11:56:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA03504 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 11:55:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA03500 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 11:55:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 4495 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2000 16:55:00 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 21 Apr 2000 16:55:00 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08563 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 09:53:41 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id JAA06642 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 09:54:59 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 09:54:59 -0700 Message-Id: <200004211654.JAA06642@sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Interesting GIF/PNG filesize results Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Jason Summers wrote: > For images embedded in a web page with the tag, Netscape ignores > the MIME type and determines the image type by magic number (the first > few bytes of the file). You could even give your PNG documents a MIME > type of image/gif and it would work. Not true. That was one of the hacks I suggested for the Puzzlemaker site, and the images always showed up as broken the first time around. If you hit the Back and then Forward buttons in Netscape, the cached image would display correctly. But how many people are going to waste their time hitting Back/Forward repeatedly just to see your site? They'll conclude the site is broken, and they'll be right. Sadly, this suggestion remains entrenched in a footnote in my book. It was a last-ditch, "if nothing else works you could try this" sug- gestion, but even so, I wish I'd left it out. Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 21 15:18:53 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23204; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 15:18:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id PAA10237 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 15:17:48 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from hermes.med-web.com (mail.med-web.com [207.175.164.123]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA10233 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 15:17:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from med-web.com (dialin005.med-web.com [207.2.113.5]) by hermes.med-web.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13878 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 15:17:47 -0500 Message-ID: <3900B70B.FCC7FFB4@med-web.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 15:16:11 -0500 From: Jason Summers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Interesting GIF/PNG filesize results References: <200004211654.JAA06642@sonic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg Roelofs wrote: > > Jason Summers wrote: > > > For images embedded in a web page with the tag, Netscape ignores > > the MIME type and determines the image type by magic number (the first > > few bytes of the file). You could even give your PNG documents a MIME > > type of image/gif and it would work. > > Not true. That was one of the hacks I suggested for the Puzzlemaker > site, and the images always showed up as broken the first time around. > If you hit the Back and then Forward buttons in Netscape, the cached > image would display correctly. > ... Hm. It still seems to display the image okay for me, both in an IMG tag or full page, using Netscape 4.7/Win32 (or IE 5.0), but I admit I haven't tested it much further than that. I'm carefully clearing my cache before testing. Are you referring to just type image/gif or to all types that aren't image/png? I'm not trying to suggest that one should ever do that. "Work" was probably the wrong word. I set up a small test page of PNG images with various combinations of file extensions and MIME types, if anyone's interested: http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/pngmime.html -- Jason Summers jason@med-web.com http://home.mieweb.com/jason/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 21 15:40:37 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23773; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 15:40:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id PAA10791 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 15:39:43 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA10786 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 15:39:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 950 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2000 20:39:42 -0000 Received: from buzz.sonic.net (208.201.224.78) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 21 Apr 2000 20:39:42 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by buzz.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14939 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:41:08 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id NAA27075 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:39:42 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:39:42 -0700 Message-Id: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Interesting GIF/PNG filesize results Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Hm. It still seems to display the image okay for me, both in an IMG tag > or full page, using Netscape 4.7/Win32 (or IE 5.0), but I admit I > haven't tested it much further than that. I'm carefully clearing my > cache before testing. Are you referring to just type image/gif or to all > types that aren't image/png? I was referring to image/gif or image/jpeg, I believe, but I no longer remember. And your page does indeed work fine with NN 4.7 under Linux. But I'm quite certain that none of these tricks worked with NN 4.5 or earlier and the IIS server--so either something changed in more recent versions of Navigator, or there was an additional weird interaction be- tween NN and IIS. Unfortunately, I don't have a glibc version of NN 4.5 or earlier on hand, so I can't directly test the older ones with your site from home. Sorry... > http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/pngmime.html Thanks for setting up this test page, though. I'll give it a try from work on Monday (I have older browsers installed there). Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 21 18:49:13 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27911; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 18:49:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id SAA15532 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 18:48:10 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA15528 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 18:48:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000421234802.YNFL23916.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:48:02 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000421194816.01ba8510@netmail.home.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netmail.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 19:48:16 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Jason's PNG MIME test In-Reply-To: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >> http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/pngmime.html NN-4.72/W-95 showed all 6 images IE-5.0/W-95 showed all 6 images NN-6.0p1/W-95 showed images 1-4 and 6, broken-image icon for 5 Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 22 05:50:15 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA10884; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 05:50:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id FAA00838 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 05:49:15 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA00834 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 05:49:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ivea5c.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.40.172]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA27685 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 06:49:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 06:49:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20000421194816.01ba8510@netmail.home.com> References: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 21 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Glenn Randers-Pehrson [Glenn Randers-Pehrson ] wrote [regarding Jason's PNG MIME test] > http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/pngmime.html > > NN-4.72/W-95 showed all 6 images > IE-5.0/W-95 showed all 6 images > NN-6.0p1/W-95 showed images 1-4 and 6, broken-image icon for 5 > > Glenn OK! Good work, Jason. Report: MSIE5 on WinNT5 sp6a showed all 6 images. Report: Netscrape 4.06 on WinNT5 sp6a showed all 6 images. What a silly thing this MIMEtype munging mess is. Seems to be pretty pointless to even have such a thing as MIME types doesn't it? But there's nothing wrong with the standard in principle, just in implementation in the bleeding bowsers. soren andersen - "Everything that I've learned about computers at MIT I have boiled down into three principles: - Unix: You think it won't work, but if you find the right wizard, he can make it work. - Macintosh: You think it will work, but it won't. - PC/Windows: You think it won't work, and it won't." -- Philip Greenspun -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 22 06:50:53 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA11983; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 06:50:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id GAA02129 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 06:49:59 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA02125 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 06:49:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ivea5c.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.40.172]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA12185 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 07:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004221149.HAA12185@smtp6.mindspring.com> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 07:49:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Interesting GIF/PNG filesize results In-reply-to: <38FFD908.A3757254@med-web.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 20 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Jason Summers wrote [regarding Re: Interesting GIF/PNG filesize results] > Soren Andersen wrote: > > > > ... > > One more interesting and in fact seriously puzzling aspect of this page > > cited here is that the PNGs display fine in both MSIE (5) and Netscape > > (4.06). They shouldn't. As per my other messages (on CGI) yesterday, the > > tripod server doesn't know about the image/png MIME type. Therefore my > > other, non-CGI, javascript-employing method for building a pageful of > > PNGs should be breaking in this case (on this server). But it is not. A > > plain IMG SRC tag does, but these images display for me. > > For images embedded in a web page with the tag, Netscape ignores the > MIME type and determines the image type by magic number (the first few > bytes of the file). You could even give your PNG documents a MIME type of > image/gif and it would work. Jason, your detailed analysis and test page are excellent as is all the rest of your contribution, yet this as stated is not the whole story. It cannot be. If this were all there is to it (Netscrape's inner workings) then all sorts of contorted code I've written over the last several years would've been unnecessary. The fact is, I got broken images on Netscape (and M$IE) when accessing inlined (IMG) PNGs on this little Tripod test site just as i have in the past from numerous other servers I have tried, until I did something about the incorrect MIME types being presented by the httpd over there. But you are right! There is no question about the fact that SOME code in SOME part of Netscrape is doing in fact what you say: looking at the magic bytes of image files. The reason I say that I know you are right is that I deduced this for myself this week, based on this: On the specific wacky server that Tripod runs (re.: my messages earlier) and on many others, the attempt to VIEW INFO (right-mouse-button "context"menu command) on an inlined PNG (or any other image type) file shows something like this (but there's MORE, see below): ---------------------- Location: http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/pngtest2/pngnow.png File MIME Type: application/zip Source: Currently in disk cache Local cache file: M10A7ELG.PNG Last Modified: Friday, April 21, 2000 15:56:18 Local time Last Modified: Friday, April 21, 2000 19:56:18 GMT Content Length: 2174 Expires: No date given Charset: Unknown Security: This is an insecure document that is not encrypted and offers no security protection. ---------------------- NOW, if one clicks on the Location: entry (which is hypertext as this is displayed by Netscape), one gets to a dialogue of the familiar type (TITLE: Unknown File Type / "You have started to download a file of type ... ") or else on any given machine something else happens (like running WinZip if its been set up as a Helper in Netscape Options, presumably). If the type is "text/html" or (presumably) "text/plain", the result is instead that the first few bytes of the PNG file are viewed as ASCII. If the MIME type is correctly set the PNG image itself is simply displayed. Sorry, I don't know (and didn't design it this way :) if Netscape offers the same thing (this specific context-menu choice) on platforms other than 32- bit Windows. I suspect for instance on Mac, not. What all this proves is simply that Netscape's recent versions are insane. Sorry (anti-M$IE partisans), but it IS *NOT* any less insane than MSIE, only slightly differently (and less deliberately anti-social/rogue i deeply feel). This I have known and have been saying for a long time. As a Web author I *HATE* Netscape 4 (no other words less emotionalistic than these suffice at this point) for its bugginess and internal inconsistencies (bugs ...). If this was a human being, we'd be talking about some sort of disabling delusional psychosis or at least severe schizophrenia, I think. One part of Netscape's "mental" processes are totally contrary to another part. It's unintegrated, split-minded, nuts, looney-toons. Oh how i go on ... I know I am discussing this with (primarily) a bunch of C programmers, people deeply familiar with the concept of insanity in software ... > This is arguably acceptable browser behavior, > since the set of supported image formats is small and well-defined. It's an ugly kludge is what it is. Sigh. > MSIE does *approximately* the same thing in this situation, but I'm sure > it's not that simple. Right. > Generally speaking, if MSIE sees the MIME type "text/plain" or > "application/octet-stream", it assumes something is wrong and tries to > figure out a "better" type by using a complex tangle of heuristics > involving the "file extension", the actual bytes in the file, ||| the registered file types on the local system ||| ... the available plugins and > ActiveX controls, the plugins installed in *Netscape*, and probably other > things. It may also override other MIME types in extreme cases, I'm not > sure. Example that proves what you are stating: when i try to OPEN a PNG file from the right-button menu in M$IE, it will open in *Netscape* if Netscape is curently running on my machine at that moment. LOL! On my system Netscape is the app registered for the file association with the MIME type "text/html", you see. Bottom line: on either browser, for whatever reasons deeply hidden in the (for these browsers before Mozilla6, *proprietary*) code, one cannot rely on visitors being able to view a PNG inlined IMG unless the server MIME type is correctly configured. This is a demonstrable empirical truth even if our hypothesis (or hypotheses) isn't/aren't up to the task of completely explaining it yet (it seems that it may depend on the barometric pressure or tide or perhaps the number of times the owner of the browser has watched "The Wizard of Oz" in his/her lifetime, for all we know). But anyway the percentages are far upped in our favor if the MIME type is correct. Best, soren andersen -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 22 11:50:42 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17547; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:50:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA09013 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:49:47 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA09009 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:49:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortuna (209-128-64-162.bayarea.net [209.128.64.162]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA59448 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 09:49:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad@nogoodreason.com) Message-ID: <004301bfac7a$cf252990$0800a8c0@home.local> From: "Brad Pettit" To: "PNG List" References: <200004211654.JAA06642@sonic.net> Subject: Re: Interesting GIF/PNG filesize results Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 09:50:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List In my experience, it depends significantly on how the image is supported. If a stream is directed to a plug-in (rather than supported natively) and the plug-in rejects or otherwise fails to handle the data, then the browser will likely NOT attempt to handle the data elsewhere. Internet Explorer sniffs the data both to validate the type and possibly to determine a type if the server offers something generic like "application/octet-stream." The validation is truly necessary; it's amazing how many JPEG graphics, for example, live on file systems as files with ".GIF" name extensions, meaning the server will tell the client they are "image/gif" when the stream is JPEG data. --bp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Roelofs" To: Sent: Friday, April 21, 2000 9:54 AM Subject: Re: Interesting GIF/PNG filesize results > Jason Summers wrote: > > > For images embedded in a web page with the tag, Netscape ignores > > the MIME type and determines the image type by magic number (the first > > few bytes of the file). You could even give your PNG documents a MIME > > type of image/gif and it would work. > > Not true. That was one of the hacks I suggested for the Puzzlemaker > site, and the images always showed up as broken the first time around. > If you hit the Back and then Forward buttons in Netscape, the cached > image would display correctly. But how many people are going to waste > their time hitting Back/Forward repeatedly just to see your site? > They'll conclude the site is broken, and they'll be right. > > Sadly, this suggestion remains entrenched in a footnote in my book. > It was a last-ditch, "if nothing else works you could try this" sug- > gestion, but even so, I wish I'd left it out. > > Greg > > -- > Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu > -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 22 12:24:42 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18173; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:24:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id MAA09875 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:23:42 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA09871 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:23:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortuna (209-128-64-162.bayarea.net [209.128.64.162]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA62364 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 10:23:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad@nogoodreason.com) Message-ID: <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> From: "Brad Pettit" To: "PNG List" References: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 10:24:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > What a silly thing this MIMEtype munging mess is. Seems to be pretty > pointless to even have such a thing as MIME types doesn't it? But there's > nothing wrong with the standard in principle, just in implementation in the > bleeding bowsers. That's not silly. MIME type suggests disposition. It's especially critical for data such as XML, for example. One would (hanging out on a limb here) NEVER want to tell a browser "Hey, all XML data should be handled by displaying it in a browser window as a tree view. The silliness is that there has been so little discipline in setting up servers that browsers have been forced to use heuristics to determine disposition. Browsers can't always trust servers to send accurate MIME types. And now we web developers are trying to establish common data formats, like XML, for different purposes, such as SVG or various application-specific purposes, where accurate handling of server-supplied MIME types are critical. Browsers know the data is XML, but they need the MIME type to suggest how to handle it. Anti-MIME arguments sometimes wrongly suggest the URL filename extension could be used instead. Extensions are optional (take queries, for example), and suggesting the type of data is critical. Ideally, filename extensions would be used only in two places, by browsers when handling local file:// URLs, and by servers when serving file system objects. --bp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Soren Andersen" To: "PNG List" Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2000 3:49 AM Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test > On 21 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Glenn Randers-Pehrson > [Glenn Randers-Pehrson ] wrote [regarding Jason's PNG MIME test] > > > > http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/pngmime.html > > > > NN-4.72/W-95 showed all 6 images > > IE-5.0/W-95 showed all 6 images > > NN-6.0p1/W-95 showed images 1-4 and 6, broken-image icon for 5 > > > > Glenn > > OK! Good work, Jason. > > Report: MSIE5 on WinNT5 sp6a showed all 6 images. > Report: Netscrape 4.06 on WinNT5 sp6a showed all 6 images. > > What a silly thing this MIMEtype munging mess is. Seems to be pretty > pointless to even have such a thing as MIME types doesn't it? But there's > nothing wrong with the standard in principle, just in implementation in the > bleeding bowsers. > > soren andersen > > > > - > "Everything that I've learned about computers at MIT I have boiled down into three principles: > - Unix: You think it won't work, but if you find the right wizard, he can make it work. > - Macintosh: You think it will work, but it won't. > - PC/Windows: You think it won't work, and it won't." > -- Philip Greenspun > > -- > Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu > -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 22 12:35:02 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18375; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:35:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id MAA10165 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:34:13 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from sss2.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [209.114.166.2]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA10161 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:34:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sss2.sss.pgh.pa.us (tgl@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss2.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27067 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:34:13 -0400 (EDT) To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test In-reply-to: <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> References: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> Comments: In-reply-to "Brad Pettit" message dated "Sat, 22 Apr 2000 10:24:00 -0700" Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:34:12 -0400 Message-ID: <27064.956424852@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List "Brad Pettit" writes: > Anti-MIME arguments sometimes wrongly suggest the URL filename extension > could be used instead. Indeed, it seems a large part of the problem is that webpage authors can't be bothered to label files with the right extension, either. So looking at the extension isn't going to help... regards, tom lane -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 22 12:45:54 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18588; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:45:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id MAA10547 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:45:05 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA10543 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:45:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000422174505.JUHF23916.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 10:45:05 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000422134520.01bb42e0@netmail.home.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netmail.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:45:20 -0400 To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson (by way of Glenn Randers-Pehrson ) Subject: Re: Why no palette with alpha Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List [redirected to png-list from png-implement] At 10:07 AM 4/22/00 -0700, you wrote: >It seems arbitrary to not support paletted RGBA images. Perhaps, but that decision, made over 5 years ago, is history now. >I'd say it should be supported. Not without rewriting the PNG spec. It would be possible to support the proposed fALS chunk, though, which achieves the same thing and more. In effect, you would transmit GA (8 or 16 bit) and a separate fALS chunk carrying a pseudocolor palette. Applications that aren't aware of fALS (all current apps, I believe), would still display a reasonable grayscale image. If instead you wrote PNGs with the unspecified color_type 7 (IA), all current applications would be forced to reject the file. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-implement-request@ccrc.wustl.edu -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 22 13:34:12 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19490; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:34:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id NAA11630 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:33:23 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA11625 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:33:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2iveb8r.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.45.27]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA29332 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 14:33:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004221833.OAA29332@granger.mail.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 14:33:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test References: <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> In-reply-to: <27064.956424852@sss.pgh.pa.us> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 22 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Tom Lane [Tom Lane ] wrote [regarding Re: Jason's PNG MIME test ] > > Indeed, it seems a large part of the problem is that webpage authors > can't be bothered to label files with the right extension, either. > So looking at the extension isn't going to help... > If that indeed is part of the origin and development of this mess, I am even more appalled at the underlying lack of a stout philosophy of engineering at companies like Netscape and M$ than I was before this discussion reached this point. The notion that you break so much for a temporary support of a user group that in this one sense, in a limited way, could be described as having the discipline and maturity of a child ... that's giving me a shiver. A good number of people I talk to these days think that's a way to describe one big thing that's currently wrong with US society: people (so-called grownups, whose life-choices have put them in the position where they *must* be accountable and show some back-bone) let their kids push them around and call the shots. Fake democracy. soren andersen - "The democratic faith in human equality is belief that every human being, independent of the quantity or range of his personal endowment, has the right to equal opportunity with every other person for development of whatever gifts he has. The democratic belief in the principle of leadership is a generous one. It is universal. It is belief in the capacity of every person to lead his own life free from coercion and imposition by others provided right conditions are supplied." -- John Dewey -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 22 16:11:58 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA22468; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 16:11:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA15168 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 16:10:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA15164 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 16:10:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortuna (209-128-64-162.bayarea.net [209.128.64.162]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA87965 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 14:10:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad@nogoodreason.com) Message-ID: <004101bfac9f$4a7d81e0$0800a8c0@home.local> From: "Brad Pettit" To: "PNG List" References: <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> <200004221833.OAA29332@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 14:11:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Pardon me for being off-PNG-topic here: Soren, as one of the developers of the Macintosh edition of Internet Explorer, I can tell you that users don't care if servers or pages are following rules, all they care about is whether things -appear- to work. That explains most of why pages render differently in different browsers. Content developers historically didn't care if they created valid documents; many kept adding and changing tags, a

here and a
there and a " " there, until things looked the way they wanted. They had no idea that some of the characteristics of what they were seeing depended on bugs or behaviors that happened to "fall out" of a specific implementation. Tweak the rendering logic of a browser's code while keeping it still technically correct and the appearance of half the web's pages will change, if they render at all. For fun, try running a sampling of web content through an HTML validator. --bp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Soren Andersen" To: "PNG List" Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2000 11:33 AM Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test > On 22 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Tom Lane > [Tom Lane ] wrote [regarding Re: Jason's PNG MIME test ] > > > > > Indeed, it seems a large part of the problem is that webpage authors > > can't be bothered to label files with the right extension, either. > > So looking at the extension isn't going to help... > > > > If that indeed is part of the origin and development of this mess, I am even > more appalled at the underlying lack of a stout philosophy of engineering at > companies like Netscape and M$ than I was before this discussion reached > this point. The notion that you break so much for a temporary support of a > user group that in this one sense, in a limited way, could be described as > having the discipline and maturity of a child ... that's giving me a shiver. A > good number of people I talk to these days think that's a way to describe > one big thing that's currently wrong with US society: people (so-called > grownups, whose life-choices have put them in the position where they > *must* be accountable and show some back-bone) let their kids push them > around and call the shots. Fake democracy. > > soren andersen > > > > - > "The democratic faith in human equality is belief that every human being, independent > of the quantity or range of his personal endowment, has the right to equal opportunity > with every other person for development of whatever gifts he has. The democratic > belief in the principle of leadership is a generous one. It is universal. It is belief > in the capacity of every person to lead his own life free from coercion and imposition > by others provided right conditions are supplied." > > -- John Dewey > > -- > Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu > -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 22 18:00:03 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24652; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:00:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id RAA17902 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 17:59:04 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA17898 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 17:59:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ivealq.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.42.186]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA15511 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004222259.SAA15511@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:59:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test (LONG) In-reply-to: <004101bfac9f$4a7d81e0$0800a8c0@home.local> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 22 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Brad Pettit [Brad Pettit ] wrote [regarding Re: Jason's PNG MIME test ] > Pardon me for being off-PNG-topic here: Sure, this is off-topic, but also so germane to the big picture of what efforts and endurance accomplishment the maintainers/ developers of the PNG standard have been doing. If I seem to write with a certain sharpness let me assure you that I back up what I say with action. My websites use PNG even though it is not convenient to do them that way. That's the tip of the iceberg of what I might mean when i talk about "action"... those who don't know me through past times online might take me as a mere bigmouth complainer, however. That's human nature, to make assumptions about other people's character. I won't stifle myself just because other people don't think it's "cool" to get worked up about something -- and i wish other people wouldn't do that either. There's a time when it is important to state that "the Emperor has no clothes." > Soren, as one of the developers of the Macintosh edition of Internet > Explorer, I can tell you that users don't care if servers or pages are > following rules, all they care about is whether things -appear- to work. > That explains most of why pages render differently in different browsers. Brad, first of all, let me say that I have no quarrel with YOU at all -- in fact you have my praise and admiration more than any single person I know of right now in this programmer / geek world of mine. You are part of a team that did the Right Thing when teams before you have repeatedly failed to do so. Why did they? That's part of what we are talking about here and I think it's worth a little emotion. The achievement of IE 5/Mac is stupendous as far as PNG support goes, in comparison with all the other major browser versions. > Content developers historically didn't care if they created valid > documents; many kept adding and changing tags, a

here and a
there > and a " " there, until things looked the way they wanted. First, Netscape CREATED tags (and tables and frames and fonts and so on and on and on). Then authors USED them. You seem to be talking about the method authors use to design pages; that isn't my point. At some point most serious Web authors bear down and RTFD. What we then discover is the why and wherefore of how the pages we designed "by the seat of our pants" work (or don't) and we try to put those rules into practice, because this thing isn't standing still and we cannot afford to become complacent. THAT's the point when we learn to hate Netscape and IE. It was my 25th visit to M$ website to try to look up something about IE, or my 50th to Netscape's, when I realized that all these products were half-finished and were going to stay that way and nobody at either establishment appeared to give a damn. I have discovered Netscape bugs that NOBODY else anywhere has documented. Let alone Netscape itself. These guys **don't take responsibility.** The one thing one ought to be careful of is minimizing in one's own mind the labors and pains of others who are working a different field (and i have done C coding and I am not spewing this about those individuals who have labored hard at developing browsers ... this is about corporate cultures and administrative decisions and how they affect the rest of us, not about slamming individual human beings). There are many content authors who care about standards and abhor the autocratic avarice of M$ and the former deaf careening self-absorbed route that Netscape took. Netscape will always be great for at a certain moment in time plunging ahead and inventing the graphical browsing agent, and that time is past now when that one business entity can set arbitrary standards and levels of internal compliance with those standards and then the rest of us just have to "accept it (or use Lynx ...)". There may not seem to be many such authors to you, but they (we) are out here. > They had no > idea that some of the characteristics of what they were seeing depended on > bugs or behaviors that happened to "fall out" of a specific > implementation. Tweak the rendering logic of a browser's code while > keeping it still technically correct and the appearance of half the web's > pages will change, if they render at all. That's already happened over and over again, Brad. That is not sufficient excuse in and of itself. What you just described is exactly what HAS happened each time a major release of a new browser came out. You think most of the sites on the Web will view acceptably in N2 today? Hello! Most won't even work in a v3 browser! AOL's own home page shreiks JS errors on its own IE3/Mac (running in AOL / Mac v4)!!! Not that AOL is a good example of anything except reckless disregard for everything but short-term corporate success ... the point is even the home pages of huge software companies do not these days display backward-compatibility with their own software products (bundled browsers)! Sure web authors seem like a mob. But some of us scream for a reason. Others just scream out of habit and because its the social custom of the times. I am sorry if I sound arrogant or full of myself, Brad, but you are talking about an area I know too well to assume a pretense of false humility. I am a self-taught Web designer since 1995, and I know quite well how people learn to code web pages. > For fun, try running a sampling of web content through an HTML validator. Old news. The point is Brad, for some reason you seem to want to defend the peers (your professional peers) who program browsers for NS or M$ or Apple or whoever (the big guys). You don't have to as far as I am concerned. Why not take your laurels and ... well, don't rest on them but accept them. Maybe your team's example will inspire something like better workmanship and ethic among some other team in the future. Doing one's best is its own reward but there is always a dimension in which there may be an effect on other people too, a beneficial one. The browser programmers with Netscape and to some extent M$ have always held control in their hands. They seem to have been swayed in an extreme manner by extremely short-sighted urges to please and cater to whatever cadre of complainers got the ear of some bozo at some crucial stage of development ... which has been a big shame for the rest of us and a toilsome burden on sweet reason. I have no respect left at all for any of them and am just praying that Mozilla 6 can change the course this has all been on. (Not that I am expecting YOU to join in prayers about your competition Brad! :-) With respect, soren andersen -- Computers are the tools of the devil. It is as simple as that. There is no monotheism strong enough that it cannot be shaken by Unix or any Microsoft product. The devil is real. He lives inside C programs. - Philip Greenspun ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 22 19:31:05 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA26341; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 19:31:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id TAA20027 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 19:30:13 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from arwen.cs.berkeley.edu (arwen.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.46.192]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA20023 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 19:30:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: by arwen.cs.berkeley.edu via smail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 00:30:13 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 00:30:13 +0000 To: PNG list Subject: Re: Why no palette with alpha Message-ID: <20000423003013.E11373@arwen.cs.berkeley.edu> References: <200004222131.OAA31441@sonic.net> <000701bfacab$2f173b60$6401a8c0@home.local> <200004082304.SAA00205@ccrc.wustl.edu> <20000422051210.F7519@arwen.cs.berkeley.edu> <005301bfac7d$2e235460$0800a8c0@home.local> <27030.956424710@sss.pgh.pa.us> <002301bfac9b$e5640930$0800a8c0@home.local> <200004082304.SAA00205@ccrc.wustl.edu> <20000422051210.F7519@arwen.cs.berkeley.edu> <005301bfac7d$2e235460$0800a8c0@home.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.9i In-Reply-To: <005301bfac7d$2e235460$0800a8c0@home.local>; from brad@nogoodreason.com on Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 10:07:03AM -0700 From: "Adam M. Costello" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Brad Pettit wrote: > It seems arbitrary to not support paletted RGBA images. > > IMO, paletted RGBA was not really that useful. > > I'm having a very difficult time being clear today. :^\ Indeed, I still don't know what point you're arguing. > I'm questioning whether storing the image as RGBA versus RGB > plus separate alpha channel is [useful]. For example, a useful > anti-aliasing alpha channel might require only 4bpp, but storing it as > RGBA necessitates the same number of bits for alpha as for any of the > color components. Even if IA (index, alpha) pixels were supported, PNG always uses the same number of bits for each component of the pixel, so the number of alpha levels would be tied to the number of palette entries, which is weird. This thread began as a debate over whether PNG should have supported IA pixels (where I is an index into an RGB palette) in addition to (or instead of) its current support for I pixels where I is an index into an RGBA palette. Maybe you want to discuss an entirely different issue. As for the usefulness of an RGBA palette, the most common use I forsaw was antialiased edges of non-rectangular images that use very few colors (like logos, icons, and cartoon art). AMC -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 22 19:47:48 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA26646; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 19:47:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id TAA20423 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 19:46:42 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from arwen.cs.berkeley.edu (arwen.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.46.192]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA20419 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 19:46:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: by arwen.cs.berkeley.edu via smail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 00:46:42 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 00:46:42 +0000 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions Message-ID: <20000423004642.F11373@arwen.cs.berkeley.edu> References: <3.0.3.32.20000417001820.00695a28@mail.schaik.com> <3.0.6.32.20000408162159.01a39dd0@netmail.home.com> <200004170835.KAA17149@njord.bart.nl> <3.0.3.32.20000418012842.006a4300@mail.schaik.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.9i In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000418012842.006a4300@mail.schaik.com>; from willem@schaik.com on Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 01:28:42AM -0600 From: "Adam M. Costello" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Willem van Schaik wrote: > What I did with the alpha values, was that I reduced them first to a > value of 0, 1, 3, 7, 15, 31, 63, 127, 128, 192, 224, 240, 248, 252, > 254, 255. This means a string of 8 bits with one group of zero's and > one group of ones. Then by and-ing this with the image and not-and-ing > it with the background, followed by or-ing both, you get quite > acceptable alpha-ed results. I don't understand why that should work. Suppose an image sample is 01000010, and the background sample is 00111001. These are nearly the same, so the composite sample should be near them regardless of the alpha value. Let's say the alpha value is 63. That means the color you're aiming for is roughly 0.25 * image + 0.75 * background. But you're actually computing 00111111 & image | 11000000 & background, right? In this case the result is 00000010. AMC -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Apr 22 23:55:24 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01377; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 23:55:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id XAA25845 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 23:54:16 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA25841 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 23:54:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000423045417.QXOT23916.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 21:54:17 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000423005431.01aba7c0@netmail.home.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netmail.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 00:54:31 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: Why no palette with alpha In-Reply-To: <20000423003013.E11373@arwen.cs.berkeley.edu> References: <005301bfac7d$2e235460$0800a8c0@home.local> <200004222131.OAA31441@sonic.net> <000701bfacab$2f173b60$6401a8c0@home.local> <200004082304.SAA00205@ccrc.wustl.edu> <20000422051210.F7519@arwen.cs.berkeley.edu> <005301bfac7d$2e235460$0800a8c0@home.local> <27030.956424710@sss.pgh.pa.us> <002301bfac9b$e5640930$0800a8c0@home.local> <200004082304.SAA00205@ccrc.wustl.edu> <20000422051210.F7519@arwen.cs.berkeley.edu> <005301bfac7d$2e235460$0800a8c0@home.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 12:30 AM 4/23/00 +0000, you wrote: >Even if IA (index, alpha) pixels were supported, PNG always uses the >same number of bits for each component of the pixel, so the number of >alpha levels would be tied to the number of palette entries, which is >weird. Use MNG. For example, send an 8-bit indexed colour image, promote it to RGBA, then send a 4-bit alpha channel. Or an 8-bit grayscale followed by a 1-bit alpha channel. Then go complain to the browser makers that they aren't supporting MNG. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sun Apr 23 23:59:23 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28460; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 23:59:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id XAA00949 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 23:58:04 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from hermes.med-web.com (mail.med-web.com [207.175.164.123]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA00945 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 23:58:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from med-web.com (dialin005.med-web.com [207.2.113.5]) by hermes.med-web.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA30746 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 23:58:03 -0500 Message-ID: <3903D3F7.4353DDCB@med-web.com> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 23:56:23 -0500 From: Jason Summers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test References: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I apologize for the additional only-remotely-PNG-related noise. I can't help myself. Brad Pettit wrote: > ... > The silliness is that there has been so little discipline in setting up > servers that browsers have been forced to use heuristics to determine > disposition. Browsers can't always trust servers to send accurate MIME > types. ... That is patently absurd. The *reason* there has been so little discipline in setting up servers is because *Microsoft* *Internet* *Explorer* uses heuristics to determine file types. If it didn't, servers would have to be set up correctly. Browsers have in no way, shape, or form been "forced" to use heuristics, and most of them still do not. Except in special cases like embedded images, Netscape Navigator (for example) always trusts servers to send accurate MIME types. Navigator does it exactly right (apparently contrary to Soren's belief). The jury's still out on Mozilla, but at least it doesn't appear to pay attention to file extensions. Now, part of the problem does lie with fascist web server administrators who do not allow their users to set appropriate MIME types. But in part it is MSIE that allows them to get away with this policy. Ideally, everyone with a web site should be allowed to configure it sufficiently to do things like this: http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/bizarroweb/index.gif ... which, surprisingly enough, does manage to step through the minefield of MIME type overruling and work correctly in (my copy of) MSIE. -- Jason Summers jason@med-web.com http://home.mieweb.com/jason/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 01:33:18 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA00285; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:33:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id BAA03215 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:32:28 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA03211 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:32:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2iveaa5.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.41.69]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA26230 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 02:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004240632.CAA26230@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 02:32:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test In-reply-to: <3903D3F7.4353DDCB@med-web.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 23 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Jason Summers [Jason Summers ] wrote [regarding Re: Jason's PNG MIME test] > Navigator does it exactly right (apparently > contrary to Soren's belief). Jason, there are beliefs and then there are empirical observations. Your explanations and test pages do not answer the observations I have made of how Netscape actually behaves. Empirical observation - experience - isn't open to debate. *Interpretation* of experience - sure. But before I veer too far into abstract philosophical discussion, let me bring this OT reply to an end ... Even if no one else ever confirmed my observations of how Netscape actually behaves (vs theory on how it does) I would not alter my reportage of facts known to me simply to suit others' opinions. However, Greg Roelofs and I think others here have also observed that Netscape behaves in a way not consistent with the simplicity of your hypothesis. soren andersen -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 09:56:43 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10368; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:56:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id JAA15592 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:55:27 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from tux.w3.org (tux.w3.org [18.29.0.27]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15588 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:55:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from w3.org (IDENT:root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tux.w3.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07497; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:55:26 -0400 Message-ID: <3904605D.951923BA@w3.org> Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:55:25 +0200 From: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions References: <200004082011.WAA22074@smtp3.xs4all.nl> <200004081706.KAA12605@sonic.net> <3.0.3.32.20000417001820.00695a28@mail.schaik.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Willem van Schaik wrote: > > At 16:21 08-04-00 -0400, Glenn wrote: > >At 10:10 PM 4/8/00 +0100, ??? wrote: > >>Ok. but GIF's only support on-off transparency anyway (or I must be > >>missing something). There's no big trick in that. That can still be done > >>with window-controls and the masked BitBlt. > > > >You aren't missing something. > > It's maybe interesting to note that when I developed alpha-channel support > for the W3C Amaya browser (I submitted it to W3C, but it never saw > production) Apparently they couldn't get your code to work for the Unix/Linux versions, it was Windows specific or something? I will chase up what happened about that. -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 09:56:47 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10378; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:56:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id JAA15608 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:55:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from hermes.med-web.com (mail.med-web.com [207.175.164.123]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA15604 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:55:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from med-web.com (eris.med-web.com [192.168.240.23]) by hermes.med-web.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04459 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:55:53 -0500 Message-ID: <39046079.C317F5B8@med-web.com> Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:55:53 -0500 From: Jason Summers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test References: <200004240632.CAA26230@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Soren Andersen wrote: > > On 23 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Jason Summers > [Jason Summers ] wrote [regarding Re: Jason's PNG MIME test] > > > Navigator does it exactly right (apparently > > contrary to Soren's belief). > > Jason, there are beliefs and then there are empirical observations. ... Okay, so be it. I see that I didn't word that as well as I could have, and I apologize. However, I'm not basing my assertion just on a few simple empirical tests. This is an issue that comes up frequently in Netscape and other web newsgroups. The answer is always the same and has never, as far as I can tell, been refuted: Netscape doesn't overrule MIME types. I guess I thought it was common knowledge -- I wasn't trying to force an opinion of Netscape on anyone. Netscape does have a serious related problem because it doesn't allow the user to adequately configure what to do when a particular MIME type is encountered. I've just never, until now, seen anyone claim that Netscape will ever behave differently on two documents that have the same MIME type. -- Jason Summers jason@med-web.com http://home.mieweb.com/jason/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 11:12:39 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12348; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:12:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA18333 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:11:38 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA18328 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:11:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortuna (209-128-64-162.bayarea.net [209.128.64.162]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA94133 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:11:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad@nogoodreason.com) Message-ID: <001901bfae07$d2431900$0201a8c0@home.local> From: "Brad Pettit" To: "PNG List" References: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> <3903D3F7.4353DDCB@med-web.com> Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:12:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Jason Summers wrote: > The *reason* there has been so little > discipline in setting up servers is because *Microsoft* *Internet* > *Explorer* uses heuristics to determine file types. If it didn't, > servers would have to be set up correctly. #1: My ISP's Apache server was configured to server .m3u files as audio/x-megurl. (Note the misspelling of x-mpegurl) #2: Configuration files are usually hand-edited to add new types. How do you think image/png got added to all those servers? They certainly didn't ship that way. What came first? Why are signature bytes critical? It's not to detect file corruption. Way too often I've had JPEG, HTML, etc sent with a mime type of image/gif, for example. If Browser-A handles it and Browser-B does not, which one do you think the web developer will claim is doing the right thing? Most web developers do not have access to the server configuration. They don't even know what MIME type data is being served as. It's not the browser-developers job to enforce these standards on servers. Browser developers are not cops. We really try to be as flexible as possible while still trying to do the right thing (take Mac IE 5's DTD detection and handling of quirky documents, for example). Take your "http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/bizarroweb/index.gif" example. You state that file extensions are a Microsoft thing, which is incorrect. The extension is used by the server software (Whether IIS or Apache or whatever) to determine the MIME type used to send the data. The client-heuristic may consider the extension on the URL, but it's not given equal weighting. Hey, the page works. An example where the heuristic does go wrong: In Mac IE 5, if we receive a text data stream that contains SGML tags, and this stream contains a number of tags that fall in the HTML realm (TITLE, HEAD, etc), we are too insistent on overriding the server-specified type and deal with it as "text/html." This is a problem with many XML streams that use vendor-specific types. However, if the data stream contains the xml document type declaration, , which I hope all users of XML include :-), then we disable our special handling and pass the mime type through intact. The bug is not in overriding the mime type at all, it's in overriding "application/*" types other that "application/octet-stream" or "application/binary," which are widely used default mime types for unconfigured file extensions, as is text/plain. --bp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Summers" To: "PNG List" Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 9:56 PM Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test > I apologize for the additional only-remotely-PNG-related noise. I can't > help myself. > > > Brad Pettit wrote: > > ... > > The silliness is that there has been so little discipline in setting up > > servers that browsers have been forced to use heuristics to determine > > disposition. Browsers can't always trust servers to send accurate MIME > > types. ... > > That is patently absurd. The *reason* there has been so little > discipline in setting up servers is because *Microsoft* *Internet* > *Explorer* uses heuristics to determine file types. If it didn't, > servers would have to be set up correctly. > > Browsers have in no way, shape, or form been "forced" to use heuristics, > and most of them still do not. Except in special cases like embedded > images, Netscape Navigator (for example) always trusts servers to send > accurate MIME types. Navigator does it exactly right (apparently > contrary to Soren's belief). The jury's still out on Mozilla, but at > least it doesn't appear to pay attention to file extensions. > > Now, part of the problem does lie with fascist web server administrators > who do not allow their users to set appropriate MIME types. But in part > it is MSIE that allows them to get away with this policy. > > Ideally, everyone with a web site should be allowed to configure it > sufficiently to do things like this: > http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/bizarroweb/index.gif > ... which, surprisingly enough, does manage to step through the > minefield of MIME type overruling and work correctly in (my copy of) > MSIE. > > -- > Jason Summers > jason@med-web.com http://home.mieweb.com/jason/ > > -- > Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu > -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 11:13:54 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12382; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:13:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA18350 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:12:55 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA18345 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:12:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortuna (209-128-64-162.bayarea.net [209.128.64.162]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA94437 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:12:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad@nogoodreason.com) Message-ID: <001a01bfae08$0094daf0$0201a8c0@home.local> From: "Brad Pettit" To: "PNG List" References: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> <3903D3F7.4353DDCB@med-web.com> Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:13:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Jason Summers wrote: > The *reason* there has been so little > discipline in setting up servers is because *Microsoft* *Internet* > *Explorer* uses heuristics to determine file types. If it didn't, > servers would have to be set up correctly. #1: My ISP's Apache server was configured to server .m3u files as audio/x-megurl. (Note the misspelling of x-mpegurl) #2: Configuration files are usually hand-edited to add new types. How do you think image/png got added to all those servers? They certainly didn't ship that way. What came first? Why are signature bytes critical? It's not to detect file corruption. Way too often I've had JPEG, HTML, etc sent with a mime type of image/gif, for example. If Browser-A handles it and Browser-B does not, which one do you think the web developer will claim is doing the right thing? Most web developers do not have access to the server configuration. They don't even know what MIME type data is being served as. It's not the browser-developers job to enforce these standards on servers. Browser developers are not cops. We really try to be as flexible as possible while still trying to do the right thing (take Mac IE 5's DTD detection and handling of quirky documents, for example). Take your "http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/bizarroweb/index.gif" example. You state that file extensions are a Microsoft thing, which is incorrect. The extension is used by the server software (Whether IIS or Apache or whatever) to determine the MIME type used to send the data. The client-heuristic may consider the extension on the URL, but it's not given equal weighting. Hey, the page works. An example where the heuristic does go wrong: In Mac IE 5, if we receive a text data stream that contains SGML tags, and this stream contains a number of tags that fall in the HTML realm (TITLE, HEAD, etc), we are too insistent on overriding the server-specified type and deal with it as "text/html." This is a problem with many XML streams that use vendor-specific types. However, if the data stream contains the xml document type declaration, , which I hope all users of XML include :-), then we disable our special handling and pass the mime type through intact. The bug is not in overriding the mime type at all, it's in overriding "application/*" types other that "application/octet-stream" or "application/binary," which are widely used default mime types for unconfigured file extensions, as is text/plain. --bp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Summers" To: "PNG List" Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 9:56 PM Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test > I apologize for the additional only-remotely-PNG-related noise. I can't > help myself. > > > Brad Pettit wrote: > > ... > > The silliness is that there has been so little discipline in setting up > > servers that browsers have been forced to use heuristics to determine > > disposition. Browsers can't always trust servers to send accurate MIME > > types. ... > > That is patently absurd. The *reason* there has been so little > discipline in setting up servers is because *Microsoft* *Internet* > *Explorer* uses heuristics to determine file types. If it didn't, > servers would have to be set up correctly. > > Browsers have in no way, shape, or form been "forced" to use heuristics, > and most of them still do not. Except in special cases like embedded > images, Netscape Navigator (for example) always trusts servers to send > accurate MIME types. Navigator does it exactly right (apparently > contrary to Soren's belief). The jury's still out on Mozilla, but at > least it doesn't appear to pay attention to file extensions. > > Now, part of the problem does lie with fascist web server administrators > who do not allow their users to set appropriate MIME types. But in part > it is MSIE that allows them to get away with this policy. > > Ideally, everyone with a web site should be allowed to configure it > sufficiently to do things like this: > http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/bizarroweb/index.gif > ... which, surprisingly enough, does manage to step through the > minefield of MIME type overruling and work correctly in (my copy of) > MSIE. > > -- > Jason Summers > jason@med-web.com http://home.mieweb.com/jason/ > > -- > Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu > -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 12:12:34 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13730; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:12:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id MAA20182 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:11:28 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA20176 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:11:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 31989 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2000 17:11:27 -0000 Received: from prop.sonic.net (208.201.224.193) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 24 Apr 2000 17:11:27 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by prop.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA18078 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:11:27 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA19691 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:11:27 -0700 Received: from webber.adilger.net (24.65.194.142.ab.wave.home.com [24.65.194.142]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15820 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:05:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from adilger@localhost) by webber.adilger.net (8.10.0/8.10.0/Debian 8.10.0-1) id e3OF5Xr06280 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:05:33 -0600 From: Andreas Dilger Message-Id: <200004241505.e3OF5Xr06280@webber.adilger.net> Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test In-Reply-To: <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> "from Soren Andersen at Apr 22, 2000 06:49:13 am" To: PNG List Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:05:33 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL73 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Just an additional data point: all 6 images appeared under Linux Netscape 4.08 (glibc). Cheers, Andreas -- Andreas Dilger \ "If a man ate a pound of pasta and a pound of antipasto, \ would they cancel out, leaving him still hungry?" http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/ -- Dogbert -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 14:28:07 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16959; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:28:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id OAA24048 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:26:44 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA24044 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:26:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ive6ci.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.25.146]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA01409 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:26:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004241926.PAA01409@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:26:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test In-reply-to: <001a01bfae08$0094daf0$0201a8c0@home.local> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 24 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Brad Pettit [Brad Pettit ] wrote [regarding Re: Jason's PNG MIME test] > Jason Summers wrote: > > The *reason* there has been so little > > discipline in setting up servers is because *Microsoft* *Internet* > > *Explorer* uses heuristics to determine file types. If it didn't, > > servers would have to be set up correctly. I believe this is only a part of the truth. Laying it all on Win32 M$IE as a shaping force seems a bit strained to me. The larger answer is haste, lack of time and patience to learn detailed knowledge about it, and the tendency people have to believe that things should run OOB without further effort on their part. > #2: Configuration files are usually hand-edited to add new types. How do > #you think image/png got added to all those servers? They certainly didn't ship > that way. Which is an oversight that ought to be corrected. It's on the Apache folks to take care of that I think. > What came first? Why are signature bytes critical? It's not to detect file > corruption. History: What came first was UNI* systems! Always! Basic UNI*, pretend its not about an httpd at all but just a generic UNI* box. The magic bytes are used by the UNI* OS to determine what sort of file it is (the OS checks a data file that I think is named ".magic"). That and permissions set on the file determine what the system might try to do with the file when given a command invoking it. UNI* culturally didn't take the route of using filename extentions to determine file types. That's an M$ thing. UNI* took a different route and that's why it is a part of the WWW. > Way too often I've had JPEG, HTML, etc sent with a mime type > of image/gif, for example. If Browser-A handles it and Browser-B does not, > which one do you think the web developer will claim is doing the right > thing? Sorry! This is the one point I don't buy, that undermines everything else. This is a philosophical point and I see the resistance to getting it is going to be great. Browser B is doing the right thing. Do you bend the definition of *truth* to suit mistaken (mob) public perceptions of a short-term, emotionalistic and arbitrary sort or do you stick to engineering!?! *Truth* in programming is rather easy to define as opposed to in Life where there is often so many shades of gray. [Nevertheless, Janet Reno Did the Right Thing.] I just came across a great .sig somebody was using. It said, to paraphrase more or less: "So you've made enemies along the way at some point in your life? Good! That's means that somewhere, sometime, you stood up for something you believed in." As for that scenario of which browser some developer will say is doing the right thing: well, anyone can have an opinion ... and there's a pungent old cliche regarding THOSE. > Most web developers do not have access to the server configuration. > They don't even know what MIME type data is being served as. I know, and it has *frustrated the heck out of me for years* in trying to serve PNGs on my pages. You know, nothing ever *changes* unless people *demand it*. There ought to be a form-letter that developers could be directed to from the PNG home page, for instance, to fill out and send to their (or any) hosting service (free or commercial) *strongly* requesting proper httpd configuration for all WWW media types, including and especially PNG. > It's not the browser-developers job to enforce these standards on servers. Yes it is. Sorry, but yes it is -- this is a rationalization. Primarily, more than anyone else's, it's their responsibility. Servers exist (the raison d'tre for an httpd) to connect to clients (browsers). The server standards evolve to fit what the clients want/know how to ask for. It's a de-facto enforcement, reflecting how things actually work rather than some abstraction. > Browser developers are not cops. We really try to be as flexible as > possible while still trying to do the right thing (take Mac IE 5's DTD > detection and handling of quirky documents, for example). Sticking to one's guns over a fundamental principle isn't being "a cop" in any perjorative sense. There's a concept in Buddhist philosophy (a philosophy of non-violence, of peace) referred to as "mercy". "Mercy" can often sound harsh to the ear of the hearer but its intention and basis is compassion and kindness. It's about not letting short-term pressure (based on people's weaker sort of human nature -- their childish impulses and lack of wisdom) undermine long-term *benefit* to *them* and others. > Take your "http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/bizarroweb/index.gif" > example. You state that file extensions are a Microsoft thing, which is > incorrect. The extension is used by the server software (Whether IIS or > Apache or whatever) to determine the MIME type used to send the data. Historically UNI* as a computing culture did not want to impose file extensions on users --the idea being that on UNI* one should be able to name a file anything one wanted to. Historically speaking, extentions *are* an M$ thing primarily. That they have become interwoven with a whole range of technologies in networked contexts is historical accident and natural adoption of expedients as things progressed. > The client-heuristic may consider the extension on the URL, but it's not given > equal weighting. Hey, the page works. SOMETIMES the page works! SOMETIMES! That's the catch. Because there's been a subversion of a "non-sectarian" standard you've broken the whole thing for *someone* if not today then down the road just a *little* bit. > An example where the heuristic does go wrong: In Mac IE 5, if we receive a > text data stream that contains SGML tags, and this stream contains a > number of tags that fall in the HTML realm (TITLE, HEAD, etc), we are too > insistent on overriding the server-specified type and deal with it as > "text/html." This is a problem with many XML streams that use > vendor-specific types. However, if the data stream contains the xml > document type declaration, , which I hope all users > of XML include :-), then we disable our special handling and pass the mime > type through intact. The bug is not in overriding the mime type at all, > it's in overriding "application/*" types other that > "application/octet-stream" or "application/binary," which are widely used > default mime types for unconfigured file extensions, as is text/plain. That's right and it is a specific, special case. The case with a standard that's supported by W3C and been around for as long as PNG has ought to be different. It is so clear-cut what ought to be happening in this case. Servers should be telling the truth about what they are serving, authors should be able to count on using an IMG tag without having to worry that the user's browser will mistakenly be told it is something other than an image/png MIME type being sent. *Especially* when the overwhelming market-share of installed httpd's is held by an Open Source app like Apache, one that is a product in a sense of the entire worldwide Internet community (the Bazaar), this should be fixable. Browsers *should break* when they are lied to about the mime type, or, even better, should be using magic bytes and heuristics to correct the problem and display the damn image () ALONG WITH a REALLY ANNOYING pop-up dialogue (look, already we have got the endless javascript error pop-ups, we've lived them for years) that informs the browser user that "the server is incorrect, please contact the administrator"! What instead takes place now is that the page breaks and a Sherlock-Holmsian effort to track down the real nature of the problem ensues, one which is only successfully completed by a relative tiny minority of experts which a specialized degree of technical know-how (us). Hiding that a problem has happened and giving only a totally cryptic and useless error fart is typical M$ stuff that so many of us have lived with for years (or switched to Linux); it isn't a good route to take. It sucks as engineering philosophy. look at this: ----- no wrap at all --------------- perl -MLWP -M"HTTP::Request" -e "$ua=LWP::UserAgent->new; $r=new HTTP::Request('HEAD','http://sleepyhollowcemetery.virtualave.net/cgi- bin/R_of_Phot_dithd.png');$rs=$ua->request($r);print \"\n\". $r- >as_string(). ' '.$rs->message .\"\n\"; @hdrs=%{($rs- >headers)};$d=0;while($d<=$#hdrs){print \"$hdrs[$d++]: $hdrs[$d++]\n\"};" ---------- cut -------------------- You know what that is? It is a Perl one-liner (the result of about 4 hours of my limited lifespan given in effort to concoct it) I wrote to "ping" a server for PNG MIME configuration. There should be a cgi online that could used to query any server anywhere about whether they are Doing The Right Thing. Maybe I'll write that. So that's my answer: now I have fixed what the browser builders should be doing and what the server admins should be doing and what the Apache developers should be doing (as simple in that case as updating what i assume is an "OOB" default .mime.types data file, so that it is easier for the server admins to DtRT) and what the authors should be doing (writing correct HTML, uploading files with proper extentions). Sweet reason. Boy, I am ready for a shower. Take it all with a grin. Your wordy friend and still your admirer, soren andersen - "Everything that I've learned about computers at MIT I have boiled down into three principles: - Unix: You think it won't work, but if you find the right wizard, he can make it work. - Macintosh: You think it will work, but it won't. - PC/Windows: You think it won't work, and it won't." -- Philip Greenspun -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 14:29:42 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17019; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:29:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id OAA24114 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:28:25 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from hermes.med-web.com (mail.med-web.com [207.175.164.123]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA24110 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:28:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from med-web.com (eris.med-web.com [192.168.240.23]) by hermes.med-web.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11556 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:28:25 -0500 Message-ID: <3904A058.1C62163F@med-web.com> Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:28:24 -0500 From: Jason Summers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test References: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> <3903D3F7.4353DDCB@med-web.com> <001a01bfae08$0094daf0$0201a8c0@home.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Brad Pettit wrote: > > Jason Summers wrote: > > The *reason* there has been so little > > discipline in setting up servers is because *Microsoft* *Internet* > > *Explorer* uses heuristics to determine file types. If it didn't, > > servers would have to be set up correctly. > > #1: My ISP's Apache server was configured to server .m3u files as > audio/x-megurl. (Note the misspelling of x-mpegurl) But x-megurl is wrong. Why should one expect something that is wrong to still work? What's worse is that it "works" on some but not all browsers, so the problem is not easily caught and corrected. And what happens someone invents another file format that sometimes uses the extension .m3u but has a different MIME type? > #2: Configuration files are usually hand-edited to add new types. How do you > think image/png got added to all those servers? They certainly didn't ship > that way. > > What came first? Why are signature bytes critical? It's not to detect file > corruption. Way too often I've had JPEG, HTML, etc sent with a mime type of > image/gif, for example. If Browser-A handles it and Browser-B does not, > which one do you think the web developer will claim is doing the right > thing? Most web developers do not have access to the server configuration. > They don't even know what MIME type data is being served as. But they *should* know, and they should have control over it. It's clear the HTTP was designed with that in mind. The fact that things didn't work out that way in real life is the real root of these problems. The problem lies on the web server, not the browser. I would categorize Microsoft's attempt to "fix" the browser as a "complex nonsolution to a simple nonproblem". Unless you consider the problem to be that some people are still using browsers other that MSIE; then it is a nice attempt at a solution. > > It's not the browser-developers job to enforce these standards on servers. > Browser developers are not cops. We really try to be as flexible as possible > while still trying to do the right thing (take Mac IE 5's DTD detection and > handling of quirky documents, for example). In my opinion, it's the job of browser developers to follow some semblance of standards. MSIE (and some other browsers, like Opera in its default config) does not follow this standard. I claim that that is a bad thing. Other people disagree. The standard being rather blatantly violated is RFC 2616 (HTTP/1.1): [from section 7.2.1] ... If and only if the media type is not given by a Content-Type field, the recipient MAY attempt to guess the media type via inspection of its content and/or the name extension(s) of the URI used to identify the resource. If the media type remains unknown, the recipient SHOULD treat it as type "application/octet-stream". Note the lack of any exception made for text/plain, application/octet-stream, or for attempting to compensate for broken web servers. However, in my opinion, I might reluctantly allow a small exception to be made. If there is an ambiguity between types, all of which are handled internally by the browser, and one type can never be mistaken for the other, then it's maybe acceptable to overrule the given MIME type. That is the case for GIF and PNG, but not for HTML and plain text (since all HTML documents are also valid plain text). > > Take your "http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/bizarroweb/index.gif" > example. You state that file extensions are a Microsoft thing, which is > incorrect. The extension is used by the server software (Whether IIS or > Apache or whatever) to determine the MIME type used to send the data. The > client-heuristic may consider the extension on the URL, but it's not given > equal weighting. Hey, the page works. I made that page weeks ago and not in response to any goings on here, so it's not entirely appropriate, but I thought a concrete example of the distinction between MIME types and extensions might be helpful. I probably shouldn't have included it, though, since it's largely irrelevant to the real issue. Of course file extensions are used by most web servers on any platform as a convenient way to determine a MIME type, but that should be totally irrelevant to a web browser. > > An example where the heuristic does go wrong: In Mac IE 5, if we receive a > text data stream that contains SGML tags, and this stream contains a number > of tags that fall in the HTML realm (TITLE, HEAD, etc), we are too insistent > on overriding the server-specified type and deal with it as "text/html." > This is a problem with many XML streams that use vendor-specific types. > However, if the data stream contains the xml document type declaration, > , which I hope all users of XML include :-), then we > disable our special handling and pass the mime type through intact. The bug > is not in overriding the mime type at all, it's in overriding > "application/*" types other that "application/octet-stream" or > "application/binary," which are widely used default mime types for > unconfigured file extensions, as is text/plain. > > --bp > Thanks for your example. The main problem I have with file type guessing is the usual problem caused by lack of standards. The web can't possibly work reliably with multiple browsers unless every browser implements exactly the same algorithm. And that just isn't going to happen in the case of MSIE's heuristics. Note that MSIE's algorithm is documented at http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/networking/moniker/overview/appendix_a.asp But it isn't very precise, and I don't think it's entirely complete. -- Jason Summers jason@med-web.com http://home.mieweb.com/jason/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 14:35:22 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17182; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:35:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id OAA24572 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:34:17 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA24568 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:34:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 15050 invoked from network); 24 Apr 2000 19:34:15 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 24 Apr 2000 19:34:15 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18102 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:32:40 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id MAA03479 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:34:15 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:34:15 -0700 Message-Id: <200004241934.MAA03479@sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > all 6 images appeared under Linux Netscape 4.08 (glibc). Likewise for 4.08-libc5. I can only conclude that the Puzzlemaker problem was somehow tied to the use of IIS. Unfortunately, they got eaten by Discovery Channel, and even though they're still using IIS 4.0, they got rid of the MIME-type hack at some point--not unreasonable, given that it didn't really work. So I no longer have any way of testing the breakage. I guess it's not too important, either. Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 16:06:46 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19449; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:06:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA27172 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:05:39 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from arwen.cs.berkeley.edu (arwen.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.46.192]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA27165 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:05:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: by arwen.cs.berkeley.edu via smail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:05:37 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:05:37 +0000 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test Message-ID: <20000424210536.A31822@arwen.cs.berkeley.edu> References: <001a01bfae08$0094daf0$0201a8c0@home.local> <200004241926.PAA01409@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.9i In-Reply-To: <200004241926.PAA01409@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>; from soren.andersen@mindspring.com on Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 03:26:40PM -0400 From: "Adam M. Costello" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Soren Andersen wrote: > The magic bytes are used by the UNI* OS to determine what sort of file > it is (the OS checks a data file that I think is named ".magic"). That > and permissions set on the file determine what the system might try to > do with the file when given a command invoking it. As far as I know, the only instance in which the OS uses magic bytes to decide what to do with a file is when a file is executed. The first few bytes are examined to determine what sort of executable it is (ELF, a.out, etc.) so that the file can be loaded, linked, and run. If the first two bytes are #! then it's a script and the rest of the first line is the pathname of its interpreter. But for non-executable files, like images or documents, Unix does not use the magic numbers to decide what application to run to process them. That's a Macintosh trick. Under Unix, the user is responsible for running the appropriate application. There is an /etc/magic file used by the "file" command, which looks at the first few bytes of a file and prints a name/description of the file format, but the OS never uses that command for anything--it's just a user command. > UNI* culturally didn't take the route of using filename extentions to > determine file types. The OS itself doesn't use filename extensions, but many commands under Unix infer the file type from the extension: compress, gzip, tar, cc, and most importantly make. > Historically UNI* as a computing culture did not want to impose file > extensions on users --the idea being that on UNI* one should be able > to name a file anything one wanted to. Yes, you can (except that slashes are reserved for separating pathname components), but it becomes much harder to use make if you don't observe filename extension conventions. > Historically speaking, extentions *are* an M$ thing primarily. I'm very skeptical of this claim. I'm too young to remember, but I bet Unix users were using .c and .h before MS-DOS was even written. I think MS-DOS's use of "." between the main name and the extension was an adoption of existing common practice in other operating systems including Unix. AMC -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 16:18:28 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19888; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:18:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA27519 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:17:19 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA27515 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:17:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ive6a1.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.25.65]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA19476 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004242117.RAA19476@granger.mail.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:17:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Free cgi-supporting server onboard X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Hello, I have a little win to report. The free WWW server space outfit named Worldzone (www.worldzone.net) is now on board with PNG support. They have confirmed that their Apache server is set up for correctly configured MIME type image/png and also that their proprietary security filter apparatus will now let *.png files pass through on author upload (before i wrote and asked, they couldn't). soren andersen -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 17:07:43 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21341; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:07:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id RAA28927 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:06:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from donald.cs.toronto.edu (donald.cs.toronto.edu [128.100.2.168]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA28922 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:06:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (cosmin@localhost) by donald.cs.toronto.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21138 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:06:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: donald.cs: cosmin owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:06:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Cosmin Truta X-Sender: cosmin@donald.cs To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test In-Reply-To: <20000424210536.A31822@arwen.cs.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Adam M. Costello wrote: > > Historically speaking, extentions *are* an M$ thing primarily. > > I'm very skeptical of this claim. I'm too young to remember, but I > bet Unix users were using .c and .h before MS-DOS was even written. > I think MS-DOS's use of "." between the main name and the extension > was an adoption of existing common practice in other operating systems > including Unix. M$ invented THE Extension? Nope. MS-DOS 1.0 was basically CP/M for i8088/i8086. It inherited almost everything - including the extension. The binary executables were called COMmands and they were files with the extension .COM which used to load at the address 0x100. So did the .COM files on MS-DOS - they loaded at the offset 0x100. The batch files (.BAT) used to be .SUB on CP/M. The plain text files used to be called .TXT on CP/M and that habit exists today on Win. Blame CP/M for the 8.3 (8 letters in the file name, 3 letters in the extension), and for the disks A: and B: and C: and for ending the line with CR/LF and for many others. If you used to be a MS-DOS hacker, you probably blamed CP/M for all the FCB functions. MS-DOS 2.0 appeared with the Unix-like directory structure. Blame again CP/M for the backslash \ instead of slash / for separating paths, since the slash had already a different meaning: option char (as minus - in Unix). Blame the cheap i.e. affordable machines of 80s which didn't even have a harddisk so you had to load the OS from a floppy drive. You had to execute commands from a floppy drive. Magic file headers? No, thankyew. Nothing that was meant to slow the system down was good. To find out the type of each file by reading from a floppy disk the first bytes is far from optimal. Then HDDs appeared but why change this extension scheme when it proved to be so efficient? EXE files also appeared, to differentiate from COM (limited to 64KB), filter redirecting appeared later etc. If something was good on Unix AND affordable on those cheap PCs AND didn't break the existing compatibility and philosophy (yeah, MSDOS had a philosophy), then that was taken. fork? flat? Blame ix86 for the segmented architecture, for not protecting any zone of memory. On the other hand, even today on my PII, I avoid using fork() every time I can. MSDOS evolved to Windoze and it grew once with the computing power. Unlike that, Unix ate up lots of hardware and it became affordable as powerful machines (from i386 and up) became affordable. Unix was not for everyone from the very beginning (I'm not saying about the software price), and here was the room for M$ to act and win$$$$$. Historically speaking, you'll be surprised to find out how many things from today's Win2000 and the poor cursed MSIE have the origin in dark ages, in some tiny CP/M in a tiny i8080 or Z80 and that lost the BIG contract with IBM(PC) merely because Gary Kildall was spending his holiday and Bill$ appeared with his Dirty Operating System (that was emulating CP/M)! Cosmin -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 17:08:34 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21371; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:08:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id RAA28949 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:07:33 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA28945 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:07:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000424220734.RWNM23916.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:07:34 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000424180747.01bc1c60@netmail.home.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netmail.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:07:47 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test In-Reply-To: <20000424210536.A31822@arwen.cs.berkeley.edu> References: <200004241926.PAA01409@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <001a01bfae08$0094daf0$0201a8c0@home.local> <200004241926.PAA01409@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 09:05 PM 4/24/00 +0000, you wrote: >Soren Andersen wrote: >> Historically speaking, extentions *are* an M$ thing primarily. > >I'm very skeptical of this claim. I'm too young to remember, but I >bet Unix users were using .c and .h before MS-DOS was even written. >I think MS-DOS's use of "." between the main name and the extension >was an adoption of existing common practice in other operating systems >including Unix. I'm not too young to remember (although I am too old to have been using UNIX or C in my computational-formative years). I learned about filename extensions, make, etc., in 1976 from Brian Kernighan. The machines I had been using up 'til then didn't use filename extensions or even allow a "." in the filenames. Someone tried to patent (or perhaps actually did patent) the notion of using filename extensions to control the behaviour of the computer in the mid 80's and I submitted info about "make" to the person who needed to break the patent. I don't know what the outcome was. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 17:42:08 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22320; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:42:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id RAA29818 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:37:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from donald.cs.toronto.edu (donald.cs.toronto.edu [128.100.2.168]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA29813 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:37:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (cosmin@localhost) by donald.cs.toronto.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21184 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:37:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: donald.cs: cosmin owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:37:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Cosmin Truta X-Sender: cosmin@donald.cs To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000424180747.01bc1c60@netmail.home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote: > At 09:05 PM 4/24/00 +0000, you wrote: > >Soren Andersen wrote: > >> Historically speaking, extentions *are* an M$ thing primarily. > > > >I'm very skeptical of this claim. I'm too young to remember, but I > >bet Unix users were using .c and .h before MS-DOS was even written. > >I think MS-DOS's use of "." between the main name and the extension > >was an adoption of existing common practice in other operating systems > >including Unix. > > I'm not too young to remember (although I am too old to have been > using UNIX or C in my computational-formative years). I learned about > filename extensions, make, etc., in 1976 from Brian Kernighan. So filename extensions appeared with make? That is something I didn't know (I hope you didn't take my previous email as if I would have said "CP/M did!") Anyway, for CP/M was the only good way to identify file types. Anyway, I apologize for being off-topic. Cosmin -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 18:24:45 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23444; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:24:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id SAA01230 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:23:38 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA01226 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:23:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ive6a1.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.25.65]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA08107 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004242323.TAA08107@smtp6.mindspring.com> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:23:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Opera 4 beta PNG support == OK?! X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Hello, Last time I tried to use Opera to evaluate the x-browser accomodation of my Website I gave up in disgust because the support for javascript just wasn't there yet. That was Opera v 3.2 or around that point. i'll skip the gory details this time ... Well, Opera 4 beta on Win32 seems to do a fine job with PNGs on the Netscape/ IE relative scale of things at least. Is this old news to readers of this list? I am sometimes I know vulnerable to the accusation that I am not paying close attention to the PNG list when i am deeply involved in other things for a time. I had cooked up a dumb test page to see how browsers do (duplicating the far better efforts of readers here on this List). It's at: http://www.wonderstorm.com/techstuff/Dragon_test_n.html This is good ... simple tRNS alpha support at least, and I am able to use js to get Opera to tell me who / what it is so i can offer it a PNG to begin with. However Opera 4 has left type image/png out of the HTTP_ACCEPT string just as M$IE had, shame isn't it. I kludge that with js (sorry Greg ... ). soren andersen -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 18:51:58 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24160; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:51:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id SAA01903 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:50:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA01899 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:50:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000424235042.TYSY23916.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:50:42 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000424195055.01bc8e60@netmail.home.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netmail.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:50:55 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: Opera 4 beta PNG support == OK?! In-Reply-To: <200004242323.TAA08107@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 07:23 PM 4/24/00 -0400, you wrote: >I had cooked up a dumb test page to see how browsers do (duplicating the >far better efforts of readers here on this List). It's at: > >http://www.wonderstorm.com/techstuff/Dragon_test_n.html I clicked on the "send a bug report" and it sent something, who knows what because it didn't offer me a window to type my bug report into. What I would have written: 1) IE-5.01 shows the background behind a bunch of white dots in a dragon arrangement. 2) The "display error report" window is too narrow. It could be a little taller, too. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 21:00:39 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27406; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:00:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id UAA04854 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:59:28 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA04850 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:59:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ive6a1.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.25.65]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA26789 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004250159.VAA26789@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:59:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Opera 4 beta PNG support == OK?! In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20000424195055.01bc8e60@netmail.home.com> References: <200004242323.TAA08107@smtp6.mindspring.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 24 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Glenn Randers-Pehrson [Glenn Randers-Pehrson ] wrote [regarding Re: Opera 4 beta PNG support == OK?!] > At 07:23 PM 4/24/00 -0400, you wrote: > >I had cooked up a dumb test page to see how browsers do (duplicating the > >far better efforts of readers here on this List). It's at: > > > >http://www.wonderstorm.com/techstuff/Dragon_test_n.html > > I clicked on the "send a bug report" and it sent something, who knows > what because it didn't offer me a window to type my bug report into. Yes, that would absolutely be a good thing for it to do. To tell the truth however the original idea was to prompt people who might never otherwise file a "bug report" to do so (it's on nearly every page on my site, not just that one). It wasn't designed to take any user input, just to ask for permission to send info that scripting has collected by capturing javascript error events (and in the future it will send using a cgi instead of using the mailto: protocol). Anyway I did receive your form submission: ---- WinErr= usableWin= SendRep= Send a Bug Report ---- Obviously the thing is totally broken although originally it worked (and you can see i had a "sneaky" data collection of browser window sizes going on too). At one point it would've showed all that info, precisely what would be submitted, to allay privacy concerns (I am personally very strongly interested in privacy rights/issues). I have in fact been working on it just the last few minutes (I've basically totally done over my site to accomodate Opera over the last 2 + hours). Thanks for trying anyway!!! > What I would have written: > > 1) IE-5.01 shows the background behind a bunch > of white dots in a dragon arrangement. > 2) The "display error report" window is too narrow. It > could be a little taller, too. Thanks again. Well, it looks like it is expected to in IE 5 then. Thanks for the feedback on the error window size too. I keep learning how careful I need to be with making assumptions about how things will look on other people's systems. best, soren -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Apr 24 21:16:34 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27809; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:16:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id VAA05399 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:15:28 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA05395 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:15:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000425021529.WYMI23916.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:15:29 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000424221542.01bc2100@netmail.home.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netmail.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:15:42 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: Opera 4 beta PNG support == OK?! In-Reply-To: <200004250159.VAA26789@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000424195055.01bc8e60@netmail.home.com> <200004242323.TAA08107@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 09:59 PM 4/24/00 -0400, you wrote: >> What I would have written: >> >> 1) IE-5.01 shows the background behind a bunch >> of white dots in a dragon arrangement. >> 2) The "display error report" window is too narrow. It >> could be a little taller, too. > >Thanks again. Well, it looks like it is expected to in IE 5 then. Netscape-6-preview-1 showed a semitransparent blue rectangle behind the dragon-dots, with your textured background showing through that. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 05:20:01 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA11238; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 05:20:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id FAA17097 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 05:18:42 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA17093 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 05:18:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2iveaht.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.42.61]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA29684 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 06:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004251018.GAA29684@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 06:18:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Opera 4 beta PNG support == OK?! In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20000424221542.01bc2100@netmail.home.com> References: <200004250159.VAA26789@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 24 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Glenn Randers-Pehrson [Glenn Randers-Pehrson ] wrote [regarding Re: Opera 4 beta PNG support == OK?!] > At 09:59 PM 4/24/00 -0400, you wrote: > >> What I would have written: > >> > >> 1) IE-5.01 shows the background behind a bunch > >> of white dots in a dragon arrangement. > >> 2) The "display error report" window is too narrow. It > >> could be a little taller, too. > > > >Thanks again. Well, it looks like it is expected to in IE 5 then. > > Netscape-6-preview-1 showed a semitransparent blue rectangle behind > the dragon-dots, with your textured background showing through that. That's truly strange. Semi-transparent? That's just a solid field of blue set to transparent using tRNS. Should be either 100% opaque or 100% transparent (Netscape 4 vs/or IE4/5). How about this: Opera 4 beta apparently 'tries' to do some kind of processing of tRNS alpha on a palette image, like that Horned Owl image on the PNG site (http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/png-OwlAlpha.html) that does not have the first palette position set to "transparent" (as per the mention Greg makes in the entry for Opera 3.x on the PNG site -- which I got around to reading again just now). I got a screen shot and placed it on the page we were just discussing (below the image of the dragon outline). One can see the speckles of background showing through (blue) around the upper left and right corners of the image. http://www.wonderstorm.com/techstuff/Dragon_test_n.html The image is 177,550 bytes. I coded a LOWSRC ponting to a JPEG format version of the screenshot (for Netscape users to see something quick) but the JPEGing ruined the details I meant to point out. Regards, soren -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 10:34:01 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19428; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:34:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id KAA25183 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:32:46 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from tux.w3.org (tux.w3.org [18.29.0.27]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA25179 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:32:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from w3.org (IDENT:root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tux.w3.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14049; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:32:44 -0400 Message-ID: <3905BA97.B7987DE5@w3.org> Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:32:39 +0200 From: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test References: <3.0.6.32.20000421194816.01ba8510@netmail.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote: > > >> http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/pngmime.html > > NN-4.72/W-95 showed all 6 images > IE-5.0/W-95 showed all 6 images > NN-6.0p1/W-95 showed images 1-4 and 6, broken-image icon for 5 Opera 4.0 beta2 showed images 1, 3 and 6 and did not show 2, 4 or 5. Which means it trusts the MIME type unless it is text/plain, but then either sniffs or looks for extensions. Other useful tests to add would be pngnow.txt served as text/plain, and two more tests (one with .png, one with something else like .bin) served as application/octet-stream -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 10:36:33 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19509; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:36:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id KAA25336 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:35:24 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from tux.w3.org (tux.w3.org [18.29.0.27]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA25332 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:35:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from w3.org (IDENT:root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tux.w3.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14321; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:35:24 -0400 Message-ID: <3905BB37.75281352@w3.org> Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:35:19 +0200 From: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test References: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Soren Andersen wrote: > > On 21 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Glenn Randers-Pehrson > [Glenn Randers-Pehrson ] wrote [regarding Jason's PNG MIME test] > > > > http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/pngmime.html > > > > NN-4.72/W-95 showed all 6 images > > IE-5.0/W-95 showed all 6 images > > NN-6.0p1/W-95 showed images 1-4 and 6, broken-image icon for 5 > > > > Glenn > > OK! Good work, Jason. > > Report: MSIE5 on WinNT5 sp6a showed all 6 images. > Report: Netscrape 4.06 on WinNT5 sp6a showed all 6 images. > > What a silly thing this MIMEtype munging mess is. Seems to be pretty > pointless to even have such a thing as MIME types doesn't it? But there's > nothing wrong with the standard in principle, just in implementation in the > bleeding bowsers. The main problems have been the reluctance of server administrators to deviate even slightly from the stock, out of the box config files. Thus leadingto a large amount of mislabelled content. Slowness in getting MIME types registered was also a factor 9not fr PNG, but for others suchas most audio formats). -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 11:13:06 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20458; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:13:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id KAA25791 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:56:18 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from tux.w3.org (tux.w3.org [18.29.0.27]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA25787 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:56:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from w3.org (IDENT:root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tux.w3.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16804; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:56:15 -0400 Message-ID: <3905C01A.C8730697@w3.org> Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:56:10 +0200 From: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test References: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> <3903D3F7.4353DDCB@med-web.com> <001901bfae07$d2431900$0201a8c0@home.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Brad Pettit wrote: > #2: Configuration files are usually hand-edited to add new types. How do you > think image/png got added to all those servers? They certainly didn't ship > that way. True, which is a good point. If the stock Apache web server doesn't ship with image/png preconfigured, it certainly should. > Most web developers do not have access to the server configuration. Right. This is a big problem. In the early days of the Web, pretty much al content providers controlled their own Web servers. Later on, by 1995 or so, many people were using servers that other people controlled, though often they could get the config changed by asking someone. Nowadays, the vast majority of web pages are served by ISPs for provate individuals, who get a fixed quota of filestore on a stock server and if they don't like it, their option is to go someplace else. The admins are unresponsive and regard any request for changes as an unwanted intrusion at best and a security hazard at worst. > They don't even know what MIME type data is being served as. Thats another thing. To find out, I actually telnet to a Linux machine, from where I can telnet to port 80 on the server in question and actually get to see the results once http closes the connection ;-) which is way too technical for most content authors. Plus, its not as if misconfigured servers give no information with unknown files. Theygive incorrect information. But I can easily envisage some authoring debug support options being built into browsers, particularly those on platforms commonly used for content authoring, that told you such useful info in some 'about this page' type dialog box. Placing this info in the hands of content authors is likely to help increase pressure for user-configurable servers, or at least for servers to come preconfigured for standard MIME types. > Take your "http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/bizarroweb/index.gif" > example. You state that file extensions are a Microsoft thing, which is > incorrect. The extension is used by the server software (Whether IIS or > Apache or whatever) to determine the MIME type used to send the data. Do Mac-based servers use the Mac filetype, or do they require an extension too? > The > client-heuristic may consider the extension on the URL, but it's not given > equal weighting. Hey, the page works. > > An example where the heuristic does go wrong: In Mac IE 5, if we receive a > text data stream that contains SGML tags, and this stream contains a number > of tags that fall in the HTML realm (TITLE, HEAD, etc), we are too insistent > on overriding the server-specified type and deal with it as "text/html." > This is a problem with many XML streams that use vendor-specific types. Hmm, so you probably display SVG files as HTML? > However, if the data stream contains the xml document type declaration, > , which I hope all users of XML include :-), Although they are not required to > then we > disable our special handling and pass the mime type through intact. Oh, so probably not then (answering my own SVG question). > From: "Jason Summers" > > Ideally, everyone with a web site should be allowed to configure it > > sufficiently to do things like this: > > http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/bizarroweb/index.gif Ideally, yes. In practice, most users don't have that control. -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 11:53:18 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21448; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:53:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA27385 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:52:18 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA27381 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:52:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortuna (209-128-64-162.bayarea.net [209.128.64.162]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA74265 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:52:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad@nogoodreason.com) Message-ID: <006801bfaed6$ac956710$0201a8c0@home.local> From: "Brad Pettit" To: "PNG List" References: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> <3903D3F7.4353DDCB@med-web.com> <001901bfae07$d2431900$0201a8c0@home.local> <3905C01A.C8730697@w3.org> Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:52:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Chris Lilley write: > Do Mac-based servers use the Mac filetype, or do they require an extension too? Depending on whether the server uses "Internet Config," they may use either or both. IC is a library that maintains many internet settings, e-mail, home page, etc. It also has a mechanism for storing "file helpers," which are used for both the handling of incoming data and the serving of files. > > However, if the data stream contains the xml document type declaration, > > , which I hope all users of XML include :-), > > Although they are not required to Oh, but a "well-formed" XML file has the header. :^) Fortunately, there's a good way to sniff for PNG and most other graphics formats, although I've seen some PNG files that didn't contain the right signature. (I guess we could say they aren't PNG files then, right?) --bp -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 12:07:54 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21788; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:07:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id MAA27845 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:06:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from tux.w3.org (tux.w3.org [18.29.0.27]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA27841 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:06:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from w3.org (IDENT:root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tux.w3.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25511; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:06:45 -0400 Message-ID: <3905D0A4.28928C21@w3.org> Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:06:44 +0200 From: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test References: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> <3903D3F7.4353DDCB@med-web.com> <001901bfae07$d2431900$0201a8c0@home.local> <3905C01A.C8730697@w3.org> <006801bfaed6$ac956710$0201a8c0@home.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Brad Pettit wrote: > > Chris Lilley write: > > Do Mac-based servers use the Mac filetype, or do they require an extension > too? > > Depending on whether the server uses "Internet Config," they may use either > or both. IC is a library that maintains many internet settings, e-mail, home > page, etc. It also has a mechanism for storing "file helpers," which are > used for both the handling of incoming data and the serving of files. Thanks. > > > However, if the data stream contains the xml document type declaration, > > > , which I hope all users of XML include :-), > > > > Although they are not required to > > Oh, but a "well-formed" XML file has the header. :^) This is getting well off topic, but if an XML file is encoded in UTF-8 or UTF-16 and uses version 1.0 of XML then it is not a well formedness error if the xml declaration is absent. > > Fortunately, there's a good way to sniff for PNG and most other graphics > formats, although I've seen some PNG files that didn't contain the right > signature. (I guess we could say they aren't PNG files then, right?) Right. -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 12:13:23 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21914; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:13:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id MAA27890 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:12:07 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA27886 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:12:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000425171202.IYED23916.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:12:02 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000425131215.01bceac0@netmail.home.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netmail.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:12:15 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test In-Reply-To: <006801bfaed6$ac956710$0201a8c0@home.local> References: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> <3903D3F7.4353DDCB@med-web.com> <001901bfae07$d2431900$0201a8c0@home.local> <3905C01A.C8730697@w3.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 09:52 AM 4/25/00 -0700, you wrote: >I've seen some PNG files that didn't contain the right >signature. (I guess we could say they aren't PNG files then, right?) Yes, they aren't PNG files. What do you do with them when you find them? Ignore the bad sig and proceed? Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 12:40:52 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22545; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:40:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id MAA28616 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:39:50 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA28612 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:39:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 31599 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2000 17:39:49 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2000 17:39:49 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23462 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:38:09 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA20370 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:39:48 -0700 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:39:48 -0700 Message-Id: <200004251739.KAA20370@sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >> They don't even know what MIME type data is being served as. > Thats another thing. To find out, I actually telnet to a Linux machine, > from where I can telnet to port 80 on the server in question and actually > get to see the results once http closes the connection ;-) which is way too > technical for most content authors. There's a nice Perl script called HEAD that makes life much simpler: % HEAD http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/img_png/pngnow.png 200 OK Connection: close Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:23:15 GMT Accept-Ranges: bytes Server: Apache/1.3.6 (Unix) Content-Length: 2174 Content-Type: image/png ETag: "e2fc4-87e-3527ee6f" Last-Modified: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:49:51 GMT Client-Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:23:15 GMT Client-Peer: 209.155.82.19:80 > But I can easily envisage some authoring debug support options being built > into browsers, particularly those on platforms commonly used for content > authoring, that told you such useful info in some 'about this page' type > dialog box. That already exists in Navigator: View -> Page Info. I don't think very many people use it, though. Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 12:59:48 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23033; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:59:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id MAA29115 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:58:26 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from njord.bart.nl (njord.bart.nl [194.158.170.15]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA29111 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:58:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gerard3 (Cable49.202.eneco.bart.nl [195.38.202.49] (may be forged)) by njord.bart.nl (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA37206 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:58:24 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004251758.TAA37206@njord.bart.nl> From: "Gerard Juyn" To: PNG List Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:58:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test In-reply-to: <200004251739.KAA20370@sonic.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Date sent: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:39:48 -0700 From: Greg Roelofs > There's a nice Perl script called HEAD that makes life much simpler: And where can we find this little gem? Gerard. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 13:47:12 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24271; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:47:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id NAA00188 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:41:11 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from tux.w3.org (tux.w3.org [18.29.0.27]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA00184 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:41:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from w3.org (IDENT:root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tux.w3.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04753; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:41:10 -0400 Message-ID: <3905E6C4.79D86AA8@w3.org> Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:41:08 +0200 From: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test References: <200004251739.KAA20370@sonic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg Roelofs wrote: > > >> They don't even know what MIME type data is being served as. > > > Thats another thing. To find out, I actually telnet to a Linux machine, > > from where I can telnet to port 80 on the server in question and actually > > get to see the results once http closes the connection ;-) which is way too > > technical for most content authors. > > There's a nice Perl script called HEAD that makes life much simpler: Neat. > > But I can easily envisage some authoring debug support options being built > > into browsers, particularly those on platforms commonly used for content > > authoring, that told you such useful info in some 'about this page' type > > dialog box. > > That already exists in Navigator: View -> Page Info. I don't think very > many people use it, though. I use it, but sometimes I want more info. And, to get the type that an inline image is being served as, you have to copy the URL to the clipboard,past it in, re-get the image, and then do view info. -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 14:07:06 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24730; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:07:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id OAA00936 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:05:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA00932 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:05:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 157.54.9.104 by mail2.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:05:48 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: by INET-IMC-02 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2651.58) id ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:05:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3BE1AD256EC3E24485A10A13452778C77C6900@svc-msg-01.northamerica.corp.microsoft.com> From: Brad Pettit To: "'png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu'" Subject: FW: Jason's PNG MIME test Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:05:46 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2651.58) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson asked: > What do you do with them when you find them? Ignore the bad sig and > proceed? We (IE Mac 5.0) don't specifically modify an invalid PNG signature, but outside of any use libpng makes of it, we use it only only to sniff for PNG in an otherwise anonymous binary stream. So if libpng rejects it due to an invalid signature, we will as well. --bp -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 14:13:01 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24868; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:13:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id OAA01070 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:11:55 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from arwen.cs.berkeley.edu (arwen.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.46.192]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA01066 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:11:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: by arwen.cs.berkeley.edu via smail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:11:53 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:11:53 +0000 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test Message-ID: <20000425191153.C4337@arwen.cs.berkeley.edu> References: <200004251739.KAA20370@sonic.net> <3905E6C4.79D86AA8@w3.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.9i In-Reply-To: <3905E6C4.79D86AA8@w3.org>; from chris@w3.org on Tue, Apr 25, 2000 at 08:41:08PM +0200 From: "Adam M. Costello" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Chris Lilley wrote: > And, to get the type that an inline image is being served as, you have > to copy the URL to the clipboard, past it in, re-get the image, and > then do view info. At least with Unix Netscape, it's not quite that bad: Right-click on the inline image, select "View Image" from the pop-up menu, then do "View Page Source" from either another popup menu or the View menu. AMC -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 16:09:36 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27691; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:09:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA04657 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:07:56 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA04653 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:07:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 21647 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2000 21:07:55 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2000 21:07:55 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07396 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:07:50 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA09207 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:07:54 -0700 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:07:54 -0700 Message-Id: <200004252107.OAA09207@sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Gerard, >> There's a nice Perl script called HEAD that makes life much simpler: > And where can we find this little gem? I guess it's about time I got off my butt and figured that out for general consumption. Here's part of the comments at the top of the script: Because this program is implemented using the LWP library, it will only support the protocols that LWP supports. =head1 SEE ALSO L, L =head1 COPYRIGHT Copyright 1995-1997 Gisle Aas. This library is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the same terms as Perl itself. =head1 AUTHOR Gisle Aas Here's what HEAD -v says: This is lwp-request version 1.33 (libwww-perl-5.36) Copyright 1995-1997, Gisle Aas. This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the same terms as Perl itself. So I guess it's part of lwp-request, except that I can't find any such thing at the CPAN site. Here's a link to libwww-perl, however; it's also by Gisle Aas: http://search.cpan.org/search?dist=libwww-perl Aha...lwp-request.PL is the base name of a script that can be aliased to HEAD or GET or POST; it's part of libwww-perl: http://www.linpro.no/lwp/libwww-perl/bin/lwp-request.PL http://www.linpro.no/lwp/ Dang, I've had it on my own system for almost two years but didn't even realize it. I've been using the copy on my ISP's shell machine instead... Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 16:14:24 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27832; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:14:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id QAA04705 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:13:04 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA04701 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:13:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 22216 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2000 21:13:03 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Apr 2000 21:13:03 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06189 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:11:23 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA10306 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:13:03 -0700 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:13:03 -0700 Message-Id: <200004252113.OAA10306@sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > > > But I can easily envisage some authoring debug support options being built > > > into browsers, particularly those on platforms commonly used for content > > > authoring, that told you such useful info in some 'about this page' type > > > dialog box. > > > > That already exists in Navigator: View -> Page Info. I don't think very > > many people use it, though. > I use it, but sometimes I want more info. And, to get the type that an > inline image is being served as, you have to copy the URL to the > clipboard,past it in, re-get the image, and then do view info. No, you don't. From the top pane: libmng - THE MNG library (free software by Gerard Juyn) has the following structure: http://www.libmng.com/ Form 1: Action URL: http://www.libmng.com/cgi-bin/formmail.cgi Encoding: application/x-www-form-urlencoded (default) Method: Post Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/TopLeft.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/BtnHome.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/BtnInfo.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/BtnHist.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/BtnDev.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/BtnDnld.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/TopRight1.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/TopRight2.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/LeftBanner.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/GIFrip.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/GIFrip.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/GIFrip.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/GIFrip.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/GIFrip.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/GIFrip.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/GIFrip.png Image: http://www.libmng.com/images/logo.png All of the URLs are links; click on any of them to see the corresponding bottom-pane info and a thumbnail: Location: http://www.libmng.com/images/GIFrip.png File MIME Type: image/png Source: Currently in disk cache Local cache file: 00/cache3905DF805A34E97.png Last Modified: Saturday, 22-Apr-00 11:35:39 Local time Last Modified: Saturday, 22-Apr-00 18:35:39 GMT Content Length: 1086 Expires: No date given Charset: Unknown Security: This is an insecure document that is not encrypted and offers no security protection. ------------------- [image-specific info that isn't cut-n-pastable in X] [thumbnail] Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Apr 25 22:58:45 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA17191; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:58:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id WAA14958 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:57:35 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from sss2.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [209.114.166.2]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA14954 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:57:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sss2.sss.pgh.pa.us (tgl@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss2.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15500 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:57:35 -0400 (EDT) To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20000424180747.01bc1c60@netmail.home.com> References: <200004241926.PAA01409@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <001a01bfae08$0094daf0$0201a8c0@home.local> <200004241926.PAA01409@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <3.0.6.32.20000424180747.01bc1c60@netmail.home.com> Comments: In-reply-to Glenn Randers-Pehrson message dated "Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:07:47 -0400" Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:57:35 -0400 Message-ID: <15497.956721455@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >> I'm very skeptical of this claim. I'm too young to remember, but I >> bet Unix users were using .c and .h before MS-DOS was even written. >> I think MS-DOS's use of "." between the main name and the extension >> was an adoption of existing common practice in other operating systems >> including Unix. Snort. Filename extensions were an ancient practice when *Unix* was invented. I recall using 6+3 filenames on TOPS-10 (where the +3 was an extension indicating file type, exactly the same as it's done now) in the early seventies ... and it wasn't new then. CP/M extended the filename part to 8 characters, but stole 3-char extensions lock stock and barrel from older systems. DOS invented nothing whatsoever. Just for reference, the reason that 3-character extensions are common now is that PDP10 machines used 36-bit words and filenames were encoded in a 64-character subset of what later became ASCII. So, 6 bits per character, the main filename fit handily in one word, and the extension fit in a halfword. Now you know why it's ".jpg" and not ".jpeg", ".htm" not ".html", etc. The physical layout reason for 3 chars disappeared decades ago, but the habit lives on. And, yes, TOPS-10 displayed filenames with a dot between the filename and the extension, even though no dot appeared on disk. regards, tom lane -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 26 00:58:53 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23329; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:58:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id AAA17614 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:57:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA17609 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:57:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ivea5s.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.40.188]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA06053 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 01:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004260557.BAA06053@smtp6.mindspring.com> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 01:57:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test In-reply-to: <200004251739.KAA20370@sonic.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 25 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Greg Roelofs [Greg Roelofs ] wrote [regarding Re: Jason's PNG MIME test] > There's a nice Perl script called HEAD that makes life much simpler: > > % HEAD http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/img_png/pngnow.png > 200 OK > Connection: close > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:23:15 GMT > Accept-Ranges: bytes > Server: Apache/1.3.6 (Unix) > Content-Length: 2174 > Content-Type: image/png > ETag: "e2fc4-87e-3527ee6f" > Last-Modified: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:49:51 GMT > Client-Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:23:15 GMT > Client-Peer: 209.155.82.19:80 That's exactly what my perl one-liner gives me as output. Neat! (for those who missed it): ---- no wraps at all ------ perl -MLWP -M"HTTP::Request" -e "$ua=LWP::UserAgent->new; $r=new HTTP::Request('HEAD','http://sleepyhollowcemetery.virtualave.net/cgi-bin/R_of_Phot_dithd.png');$rs=$ua->request($r);print \"\n\". $r->as_string(). ' '.$rs->message .\"\n\"; @hdrs=%{($rs->headers)};$d=0;while($d<=$#hdrs){print \"$hdr ---- cut ------------------- Of course put the url to your image in place of the one I have in there. The perl system on the machine that runs this has to have the LWP module package installed, as well as (if one, the other is there i think) HTTP::Request. So I re-invented the whell AGAIN, eh? Oh well . soren -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 26 00:58:58 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23339; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:58:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id AAA17625 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:57:56 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA17621 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:57:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ivea5s.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.40.188]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA23610 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 01:57:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004260557.BAA23610@smtp6.mindspring.com> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 01:57:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: About filename extensions (LONG) X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List [discussion started under thread "Jason's PNG MIME test"] I want to clarify what I intended in my statements about filename extensions being "primarily an M$ thing" (re. the handling of mime types by clients [browsers] and servers). There's been quite a few good comments, anecdotal history, and personal recollections from the graybeards among us (I am one literally speaking but ... ) (hey Glenn) in response to what I wrote. Using the short phrase "filename extensions" shorn of contextual meaning, my statements wouldn't have been supportable. There is a context for what I was proposing. In speaking of extensions the way I intended, there is more to it than just whether files have a dot-xxx (or dot-x or dot-xx) name. What I was referring to is an entire system of which the name extensions are the key component, and this system is specific to M$ OS's in historical terms although not limited now to them in every aspect. M$ operating systems in modern times use the filename extentions in a very specific way through the mechanism of *file associations*. The Registry holds the data for the OS on which extensions are associated with which applications / possible actions / shell options etc. UNI* _does not_ have a Registry. More or less recently or some time ago all sorts of things (mechanisms) might have been ADDED to UNI* which resemble aspects of this Association thing, but they are not quite as integral. Whether one likes it or not, and whether it can be proven exactly true by people with some detailed inside information or investigation or not, M$ *seems* to have been the company that invented this mechanism. I am not applauding M$, all of my comments here and in past messages were neutral ones. NOR did I ever say that "M$ *invented* filename extensions." There are three major OS's that I know about / care to talk about in terms of what's relevent in most people's working lives if they are part of the computing / Information industries. Those 3 are varieties of UNI*, Win, and Mac. Each of those 3 took a slightly different road towards achieving in the larger view much the same ends. I personally, although I still use a M$ OS, like the UNI* one best (and I have "made over" my NT so as to make it seem as much like a UNI* system as possible). UNI* however has a tremendous reliance on a standardized filesystem tree. If you (try to) set up a UNI* system "from scratch" and don't know what directories should exist, what should be created where, etc, well, the gods help you because you are in for it. There's a tremendous amount of great software out there for you to use but very little of it will run or even build without that standardized filesystem tree -- so that things can be found where UNI* convention dictates they expect to be found. This thing I call the filesystem tree is a form of discipline that allows much of the user freedom that UNI* fosters, to then exist. I am intrigued by the fact that I have so seldom -- never actually -- heard UNI* partisans fully acknowledge this aspect of their preferred kind of computing. It is as weighted down with history as anything produced by M$ -- just with a far larger more diverse community of contributing participants that shaped that history (which is what makes it better, in large part). Much is said about how much freedom the UNI* user has to make things work they way they want, but little enough about the price of admission :-). Windows takes another course, natch. Taking away as much choice (need to make choices) from the user as possible, M$ puts most of it in its own hands and the rest in the hands of the developer of Windows apps. The result is a creature so perversely obstinant when you want to really get into the "guts" of the thing that it will make you want to scream (only thing worse I ever encountered was my Mom's underpowered Mac Performa 6116 PPC -- before its RAM infusion). Much of what is provided in the way of supportive structural mechanisms for Windows users is provided by UNI* through the architecture and mechanisms associated with that filesystem tree. Mac follows its own way with its "creators" and its resource fork and so on. Mac allows developers a lot of creativity in how they utilize what has long been a basically limiting OS (really outdated until whatever -- OS 10? -- I guess) -- a little like the creativity of the composer of haiku, who works in a very rigidly defined format. That's my perception about Mac at least -- in talking about Mac I am, I acknowledge, less knowledgeable than about the others (but I know a 16-bit, non-preemptively multitasking OS when I am trapped in a room with it ... ). I am not interested in platform bigotry or platform wars -- i consider myself "platform agnostic" but with strong personal inclinations toward UNI*. I am not making these statements as an incitement towards any heated debates about the virtues of one platform vs another. My point is that in stating that "the filename extension is primarily an M$ thing" i mean to say something like "M$ has made the extension to the filename a key part of the usability of its OS -- to whatever extent anyone CAN find it a usable OS -- through this mechanism of filename associations with applications software and shell subsystems; and that while anyone can see that this is a general idea (like an algorithm) that can be and has been widely employed to all sorts of uses (by all sorts of parties outside M$), Windows is married to it in a way that makes it far more inseparably a part of how to do things in the M$ OS than it has to be on other platforms." A good idea is a good idea, right? It's gotta cost less in CPU cycles to determine the "type" of a file's data by looking at the name it is known to the filesystem by rather than actually *opening* the unknown critter and reading some bytes. I am not against employing a good idea wherever it makes sense to do so. M$ DOS (as based on CP/M) caused a general rule to become entrenched in computing culture (for a good number of years) that if you expected to ever share a file across a network or distribute it any widespread way, you had better name it not exceeding 8.3 characters -- no matter what platform you created it on to begin with. This is just how things turned out, its how influence works. It didn't have to be that way -- there's no natural principle involved that dictates that a proper short filename should be that many bytes. Just early hardware limitations. Likewise if now it seems like all sorts of apps use the filename extension (like a server developed on and primarly run on UNI* -- Apache -- does) to determine mime types, that still doesn't mean that in historical perspective these statements about M$ aren't pretty accurate, as accurate as one can usually be about such inscrutables, if one is a generalist, as I am (a regular Renaissance Man :-) . A lot of the replies that sort of contradicted my statements seemed written from exclusively a very recent perspective. Not sure what to say if asked what the value is in the historical perspective as opposed to the "right here right now" one beyond reciting that old adage "those who don't learn about their history are doomed to repeat it." best, soren andersen -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 26 00:59:06 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23353; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:59:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id AAA17619 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:57:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA17615 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:57:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ivea5s.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.40.188]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA31335 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 01:57:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004260557.BAA31335@smtp6.mindspring.com> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 01:57:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test In-reply-to: <005f01bfae79$e4d91110$0201a8c0@home.local> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Brad's email arrived twice at my inbox and I am going to make an assumption, although i don't see headers showing support for it, that he intended that one was to the PNG List and one copied privately to me direct (which is a courtesy I don't mind tho some get huffy about it -- I appreciate the intention -- and am not commenting on). I am going to reply to the List and in making this assumption just crossing my fingers that I guessed right and am not committing a Netiquette breach by redirecting a message intended only for me. On 24 Apr 00, an entity purporting to be Brad Pettit [Brad Pettit ] wrote [regarding Re: Jason's PNG MIME test] > Soren, philosophically, I agree with you. > > However, we had MANY users tell us that "well, Netscape handles it" or > "Windows handles it" when something didn't display. > > It frequently narrowed down to ignoring server-supplied MIME types that were > wrong. I just want to mention that I appreciate that my perception of these matters must be different than yours -- I didn't until this exchange have any particular notion that server mistakes were so commonplace; and I though it mostly only applied to PNG. Your work in your field must have brought you into contact with far more instances of this than i have ever come across, so the perspective is naturally different. Thanks again, soren -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 26 07:16:03 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00975; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 07:16:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id HAA25560 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 07:14:51 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from tux.w3.org (tux.w3.org [18.29.0.27]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA25556 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 07:14:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from w3.org (IDENT:root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tux.w3.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA30337; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:14:50 -0400 Message-ID: <3906DDB4.F1340AC4@w3.org> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:14:44 +0200 From: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test References: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> <3903D3F7.4353DDCB@med-web.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Jason Summers wrote: > Ideally, everyone with a web site should be allowed to configure it > sufficiently to do things like this: > http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/bizarroweb/index.gif > ... which, surprisingly enough, does manage to step through the > minefield of MIME type overruling and work correctly in (my copy of) > MSIE Amaya doesn't display anything. But that is because it throws away anything after . Looking at your source, I see: This is HTML <<<<====== whoops!

"File extensions" are not supposed to apply to the web!

Could you fix that? Great test page, otherwise. -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 26 15:13:08 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13160; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:13:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id PAA08541 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:10:46 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from hermes.med-web.com (mail.med-web.com [207.175.164.123]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA08537 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:10:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from med-web.com (eris.med-web.com [192.168.240.23]) by hermes.med-web.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27146 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:10:41 -0500 Message-ID: <39074D41.98DA704D@med-web.com> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:10:41 -0500 From: Jason Summers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Jason's PNG MIME test References: <200004212039.NAA27075@sonic.net> <200004221049.GAA27685@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> <005b01bfac7f$8cbc7bd0$0800a8c0@home.local> <3903D3F7.4353DDCB@med-web.com> <3906DDB4.F1340AC4@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Chris Lilley wrote [concerning http://home.mieweb.com/jason/testbed/bizarroweb/index.gif]: > > <<<<====== whoops! > Could you fix that? Great test page, otherwise. Thanks, it's fixed. I must've forgot to weblint that one. -- Jason Summers jason@med-web.com http://home.mieweb.com/jason/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Apr 26 15:37:25 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13744; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:37:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id PAA09022 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:36:24 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA09018 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:36:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 12212 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2000 20:36:19 -0000 Received: from buzz.sonic.net (208.201.224.78) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 26 Apr 2000 20:36:19 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by buzz.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18264 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:38:13 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id NAA07211 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:36:20 -0700 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:36:20 -0700 Message-Id: <200004262036.NAA07211@sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Win IE 5.5 beta and PNG Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Could any of the MS folks here comment on the following? http://msdn.microsoft.com/voices/ie55.asp Specifically, the line way down at the bottom about an ImageLoader "effect" and per-pixel alpha. I verified that the default alpha support in the 5.5 beta is just as bad as in all previous releases, and ImageLoader itself is undocumented. But if it's anything like the "BasicImage" transform/effect/ whatever, then it appears to be something that (1) requires one to modify the content (HTML) in order to make it work; (2) requires JavaScript, VB- Script and/or ActiveX; (3) requires DirectX 6.x; and (4) requires Win2k or Win98.2. Am I close? (If so, I must say I'm a tad underwhelmed...) Will there be real alpha support any time soon? Any chance of porting the Mac version? :-) Thanks, Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 28 04:55:19 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA19787; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 04:55:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id EAA27744 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 04:53:24 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from njord.bart.nl (njord.bart.nl [194.158.170.15]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA27740 for ; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 04:53:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gerard3 (Cable49.202.eneco.bart.nl [195.38.202.49] (may be forged)) by njord.bart.nl (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA87687 for ; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:53:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004280953.LAA87687@njord.bart.nl> From: "Gerard Juyn" To: PNG List Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:55:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Win IE 5.5 beta and PNG In-reply-to: <200004262036.NAA07211@sonic.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Date sent: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:36:20 -0700 From: Greg Roelofs > Could any of the MS folks here comment on the following? > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/voices/ie55.asp Hope you got some private response to that.... Seems like M($/=2) has closed shop. Gerard. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 28 09:27:08 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21301; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:27:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id JAA03338 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:25:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA03334 for ; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:25:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 4699 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2000 14:25:52 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 28 Apr 2000 14:25:52 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (bolt [208.201.224.36]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA01455 for ; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:23:53 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id HAA16350 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:25:46 -0700 Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA24764 for ; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 02:51:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sigmund (user-2ivea5p.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.40.185]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA05503 for ; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 03:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004280751.DAA05503@granger.mail.mindspring.net> From: "Soren Andersen" To: PNG List Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 03:51:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: PNG Home URL change X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Hello friends, It is with the knowledge that many readers don't have my combination of system characteristics (Win NT, ActivePerl) that I nonetheless offer a quick fix for the upcoming change of the address for the PNG home pages -- if you are a maintainer of many pages on which the PNG Site is cited / linked to, perhaps a few of you can use this: ---- NO WRAP AT ALL ------- FOR %A IN ("*.htm*") DO ( perl "-i.pbu" -e "while(<>){s#http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/#http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/#;print;}" %A) ------------------------------- Perhaps to be followed by this (unless you are reckless and don't want to keep the backups *.pbu just created by Perl around for a while, in which case just do "-i" in the commandstring above with no postfix, anyway -- not recommended!): ---- NO WRAP AT ALL ------- tar -zvcf BEFORE_I-PEDIT.tar.gz --remove-files *.pbu ------------------------------- The first command string above is a Perl one-liner (I am fond of those) that will patch up every .htm[l] file in a directory with the new url for the PNG home. (I could probably make it recurse subdirs but ...). The second depends on you having tar and gzip on your system path (and I know that's rare for Windoze users too) and it gzip-tarballs the backups for convenience. ANYWAY, HTH somebody, soren andersen -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Apr 28 15:46:26 2000 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25163; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:46:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) id PAA13836 for png-list-out-7vQXI35H; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:45:15 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail0.mailsender.net (mail0.mailsender.net [209.132.1.30]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA13827 for ; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:45:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from libretto (154.5.156.137) by mail0.mailsender.net (5.1.012) id 390787860006C902 for png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:44:47 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000426134107.0068e0dc@mail.schaik.com> X-Sender: willemschaik@mail.schaik.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:41:07 -0600 To: PNG List From: Willem van Schaik Subject: Re: Netscape 6 initial impressions In-Reply-To: <20000423004642.F11373@arwen.cs.berkeley.edu> References: <3.0.3.32.20000418012842.006a4300@mail.schaik.com> <3.0.3.32.20000417001820.00695a28@mail.schaik.com> <3.0.6.32.20000408162159.01a39dd0@netmail.home.com> <200004170835.KAA17149@njord.bart.nl> <3.0.3.32.20000418012842.006a4300@mail.schaik.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 00:46 23-04-00 +0000, Adam wrote: >Willem van Schaik wrote: > >> What I did with the alpha values, was that I reduced them first to a >> value of 0, 1, 3, 7, 15, 31, 63, 127, 128, 192, 224, 240, 248, 252, >> 254, 255. This means a string of 8 bits with one group of zero's and >> one group of ones. Then by and-ing this with the image and not-and-ing >> it with the background, followed by or-ing both, you get quite >> acceptable alpha-ed results. > >I don't understand why that should work. Suppose an image sample is >01000010, and the background sample is 00111001. These are nearly the >same, so the composite sample should be near them regardless of the >alpha value. Let's say the alpha value is 63. That means the color >you're aiming for is roughly 0.25 * image + 0.75 * background. But >you're actually computing 00111111 & image | 11000000 & background, >right? In this case the result is 00000010. You are in this case quite right! It shouldn't work, but it does. However, not without reason I wrote that this method would give "quite acceptable" results. And you have given an example where it doesn't do that, but that means in real life: one pixel wrong, in this case black :-). On the average however, the method appears to work. I will never defend this method to be better than straight-forward (a*im)+((1-a)*bg) calculations. The only reason for doing it like this is that because you only use bit and-ing and or-ing, you can do it purely with the Windows BitBlt function. And that was for the Amaya program I worked on a big saving. For example when you would have a 5-6-5 color model, the alpha mask would be (your example) 11000110 00011000 and the invers mask for the background 00111001 11100111. After that the bitmap can just be treated as any 16-bit bitmap. Anyway, this is a typicle case of "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" and the problem is that with all my recent moves of country, house and systems, I lost the screendumps that show the results. And my current system has not enough space to rebuild my own Amaya version. I will try to create some test-images in the next couple of days. Willem v a n S c h a i k ------------------------------------------------------------------------ mailto:willem@schaik.com http://www.schaik.com/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu