From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 1 07:00:05 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA26779 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 07:00:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id HAA16421 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 07:01:13 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id HAA16416 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 07:01:07 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id HAA08020; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 07:55:37 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980701115151.00c84cfc@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 07:51:51 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 03:00 PM 6/30/98 -0700, you wrote: >> I tried to replicate your results, but the URL you gave didn't seem to >> have those images on it - instead, it had some presidential election >> stuff, or something. > >The images are all available there; you just have to get them one at >a time. Below is a shell script you can use to grab all 55. (I know, >it would be a lot shorter if I did it as a loop, but this was a trivial >vi edit. Do a global gif->png if you want his original PNGs instead.) No, do a global "convert file.gif file.png" using a recent version of ImageMagick to get his original PNGs Then try "convert -colors 256 gif png" John Cristy: wouldn't it be fairly simple to make "-colors 256" the default when reading GIFs or other 256-or-fewer-color formats? Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 1 11:15:20 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA02930 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:15:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA19592 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:12:59 -0500 Received: from sophia.inria.fr (sophia.inria.fr [138.96.32.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id LAA19581 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:12:54 -0500 Received: from w3.org by sophia.inria.fr (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18577; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:07:41 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: sophia.inria.fr: Host clill-pm.inria.fr [138.96.224.138] claimed to be w3.org Message-ID: <359A5EFB.38E1AF39@w3.org> Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 18:08:27 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List CC: bcr@sanskrit.lz.att.com Subject: Re: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ References: <199806302213.PAA04843@bolt.sonic.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------08F965986180BF1D4D660D6D" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------08F965986180BF1D4D660D6D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg Roelofs wrote: > The "Introduction to PNG Features" page addresses some of the common > problems affecting PNG's "compression" (including this one). Others > to watch out for are bloated palettes and failure to use dynamic > filtering in non-palette images. I noticed that Photoshop 4.0 always seems to create 256-entry palettes, with the unused entries filled with black. For example a test image (included here as an attachment) contains 11 colors; change mode in Photoshop from RGB to Indexed correctly noted that there were 11 colors and matched them with an exact palette. But saving a copy as PNG gave a 256-entry palette (and what looks like level 6 compression): a total file size of 4253 bytes with an IDAT of 3356 bytes. This does include gAMA and cHRM, which is fine, but not the main source of bloat. Glenn's pngcrush with -brute got that down to 1611 bytes with an IDAT of 714 bytes. Perhaps an option to detect and trim unused palette entries would be a useful addition. Removing totally unused entries should be easy, and detecting duplicate palette samples should be also quite easy (and give improved compression of the IDAT, too). The same image saved from Photoshop 4.0 using Ulead Smart Saver, an export plug-in, gave a file size of 648 bytes (filter method 0, level 9 compression, with an IDAT of 533bytes). This file had no gAMA or cHRM, but did somewhat redundantly have a bKGD chunk. Pngcrush -brute discovered that for this image, filter method 2 actually gave a slightly smaller file: 627 bytes with an IDAT of 512 bytes. Unusual for an indexed image. This is the image attached to this mail, except that I added a gAMA chunk and stripped out the bKGD (its greyscale, so the cHRM is not useful): 630 bytes with an IDAT of 512 bytes. BTW the actual image is for setting up a monitor - there should be just noticeable differences between the five dark and the five light patches when the monitor controls are set correctly. If brightness is set too high, the black patch will not be black; set too low, the dark patches look all the same. With contrast set too high, there might be saturation so several light patches will look the same; with it set too low, the differences between patches are less obvious. I find it useful, anyway. The original image is in LAB and is a 25k Photoshop file ;-) PS oh and the GIF is 4192 bytes at 4bits/pixel with a 16-element palette. I don't have tools handy to check that this is the smallest possible. It was generated by Ulead Smart Saver. -- Chris --------------08F965986180BF1D4D660D6D Content-Type: image/png; name="BlackWhite calib.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="BlackWhite calib.png" iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAgIAAAGPBAMAAADcraVkAAAABGdBTUEAAKK81cNBgQAAACFQ TFRFAAAAAwMDBgYGCQkJDAwMeHh48/Pz9vb2+fn5/Pz8////wHkQhAAAAgBJREFUeNrt3KEN ACAMBEDCBmyGYUqGgxHQNcia3i/Q5PKq4vuqnt6qhwABAgQIECBAgAABAgQIECBAgEAU2JkJ lzP/YlMHCBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAg QIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIDAR2BkJlw+ibk6QIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIE CBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIE CBAgQIAAAQIECHwE7BHpAAECBAgQIECAAAECBAgQIECAAAECBAgQIECAAAECBAgQIECAAAEC BAgQIECAAAECBAgQIECAAAECBAgQIECAAAECBAgQIECAAAECBAgQIGCPSAcIECBAgAABAgQI ECBAgAABAgQIECBAgAABAgQIECBAgAABAgQIECBAgAABAgQIECBAgAABAgQIECBAgAABAgQI ECBAgAABAgQIECBAwBaNDhAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAg QIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECBAgQIAAAQIECNik0gECBAgQIECA AAECBAgQIECAAAECBCrmAcQ65pIbiwyYAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC --------------08F965986180BF1D4D660D6D-- -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jul 2 08:56:08 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA15293 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:56:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id IAA04336 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:57:46 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id IAA04331 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:57:41 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id JAA17433; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:52:24 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980702134833.00e9f084@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 09:48:33 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 06:08 PM 7/1/98 +0200, Chris wrote: >This is the image attached to this mail, except that I added a gAMA >chunk and stripped out the bKGD (its greyscale, so the cHRM is not >useful): 630 bytes with an IDAT of 512 bytes. > >BTW the actual image is for setting up a monitor Did you have some good reason for using gamma=1/2.4 instead of gamma=1/2.2? Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jul 2 09:43:53 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA15650 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:43:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA05500 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:47:39 -0500 Received: from sophia.inria.fr (sophia.inria.fr [138.96.32.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA05494 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:47:31 -0500 Received: from w3.org by sophia.inria.fr (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22070 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:42:12 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: sophia.inria.fr: Host clill-pm.inria.fr [138.96.224.138] claimed to be w3.org Message-ID: <359B9C74.41CDB2@w3.org> Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 16:43:00 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ References: <1.5.4.32.19980702134833.00e9f084@netgsi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote: > > At 06:08 PM 7/1/98 +0200, Chris wrote: > >BTW the actual image is for setting up a monitor > > Did you have some good reason for using gamma=1/2.4 instead > of gamma=1/2.2? The gAMA chunk was set to whatever Photoshop seems to think is the correct value for my monitor. I don't have a measurement probe for this monitor (its the one on my home PC) so I don't know how accurate that 2.4 is. -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jul 2 13:24:13 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA17110 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:24:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA09299 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:27:50 -0500 Received: from mail5.microsoft.com (mail5.microsoft.com [131.107.3.121]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA09294 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:27:46 -0500 Received: by INET-IMC-05 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) id <3B28YBHD>; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:22:29 -0700 Message-ID: <71F299426E8CCF11B05600805F6809DF020D09A1@cup-01-msg.dns.microsoft.com> From: John Bowler To: PNG List Subject: RE: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:22:28 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List From: Chris Lilley [mailto:chris@w3.org] >Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote: >> >> At 06:08 PM 7/1/98 +0200, Chris wrote: >> >BTW the actual image is for setting up a monitor >> >> Did you have some good reason for using gamma=1/2.4 instead >> of gamma=1/2.2? > >The gAMA chunk was set to whatever Photoshop seems to think is the >correct value for my monitor. I don't have a measurement probe for this >monitor (its the one on my home PC) so I don't know how accurate that >2.4 is. PhotoShop has built in settings for a large number of monitors - if the "monitor" setup is correct presumably the answer is as accurate as the figures provided by the manufacturer. IMHO this can be counter-productive - many times an image author wants the image to behave in a well defined way on a variety of monitors and is already accustomed to any weirdness in their own setup. (E.g. they may load images from other sources, they know how they look on their own system, they may be surprised when an image they prepare which is "identical" behaves differently, because of the gamma correction, on other systems.) The instructions on http://www.srgb.com detail how to persuade PhotoShop4 to believe that the system is sRGB. Those instructions work for any gamma setting - not just sRGB. Anyway, PhotoShop 5.0 seems to be completely different - it has, on the menu: file/color settings.../RGB setup and, on the system I have it installed on (Toshiba 520) this comes with "sRGB" as the default. For sRGB it advertises the gamma setting as "2.2", the white point as D65 and the primaries as REC 709 - which all looks good. It then, apparently, compensates to the monitor characteristics. However, when I try using PS5 to view the PNGSuite 16 bit grayscale "gamma" test images (I used g03n0g16.png and g25n0g16.png) the display is clearly not doing the appropriate gamma correction. Further when I save these images as PNG both get saved with: chunk gAMA at offset 0x00025, length 4: 0.22727 chunk cHRM at offset 0x00035, length 32 White x = 0.31269 y = 0.32899, Red x = 0.63999 y = 0.32998 Green x = 0.29998 y = 0.59999, Blue x = 0.14999 y = 0.05999 0.22727 is equivalent to a screen gamma of 4.40 (exactly!) Further experiment shows that PS5 writes 1/2*g into the gAMA chunk, where "g" is the value given in the RGB profile dialog. John Bowler -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jul 2 14:20:57 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17466 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:20:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA09765 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:10:05 -0500 Received: from www10.w3.org (www10.w3.org [18.23.0.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA09750 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:09:43 -0500 Received: from www.zeo.co.jp ([203.139.31.2]) by www10.w3.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA21112 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:04:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: www10.w3.org: Host [203.139.31.2] claimed to be www.zeo.co.jp Received: from resilier (ip70.malibu4.ca.pub-ip.psi.net [38.29.52.70]) by www.zeo.co.jp (8.8.5/3.5Wpl3) with SMTP id DAA24935; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 03:57:00 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 03:57:00 +0900 (JST) From: **Bull*s-Eye <1h562f@ibm.net> To: Received: from SMTP.XServer (Smail4.1.19.1 #20) id m0wBzN7-009vdR; Wednesday, June 10th, 1998 Received: from mail.apache.net(really [164/187]) by relay.comanche.com Monday, June 8th, 1998 Received: from 32776.21445(really [80110/80111]) by relay.denmark.nl Saturday, June 6th, 1998 Received: from local.nethost.org(really [24553/24554]) by relay.SS621.net Friday, June 5th, 1998 Message-Id: <19943672.886214@relay.comanche.denmark.eu> Thursday, June 11th, 1998 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Authenticated sender is <1h562f@ibm.net> Subject: **Bull*s-Eye-Software Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit EMAIL MARKETING WORKS!! 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Those instructions work for any gamma > setting - not just sRGB. I don't believe that this can be the case, unless the monitor happens to be well aproximated by the sRGB gamma settings (which is true on average). > Anyway, PhotoShop 5.0 seems to be completely different Yes. Photoshop 4 treats CMYK as something which is color corrected, and RGB as a constant thing which one converts out of. For example, all images in a given photoshop 4 session must have the same gamma and the same chromaticity (monitor phosphor) settings. It is not possible to do a gamut warning when converting from LAB or CMYK to RGB. > - it has, on the > menu: file/color settings.../RGB setup and, on the system I have it > installed on (Toshiba 520) this comes with "sRGB" as the default. For sRGB > it advertises the gamma setting as "2.2", the white point as D65 and the > primaries as REC 709 - which all looks good. It then, apparently, > compensates to the monitor characteristics. Yes. Photoshop 5 responds to my criticism of the color calibration of Photoshop 4. It treats RGB spaces as first class citizens, along with LAB and the CMYK spaces. So, in a given RGB space it does the same as Photoshop 5 and 4 do in LAB or CMYK - it converts to the device RGB for display. Gamut warning alarms should be possible in RGB in Photoshop 5 (though I am not able to check this until I spring for the upgrade). > However, when I try using PS5 to view the PNGSuite 16 bit grayscale "gamma" > test images (I used g03n0g16.png and g25n0g16.png) the display is clearly > not doing the appropriate gamma correction. Further when I save these > images as PNG both get saved with: > > chunk gAMA at offset 0x00025, length 4: 0.22727 > chunk cHRM at offset 0x00035, length 32 > White x = 0.31269 y = 0.32899, Red x = 0.63999 y = 0.32998 > Green x = 0.29998 y = 0.59999, Blue x = 0.14999 y = 0.05999 > > 0.22727 is equivalent to a screen gamma of 4.40 (exactly!) Further > experiment shows that PS5 writes 1/2*g into the gAMA chunk, where "g" is the > value given in the RGB profile dialog. Aha. A prediction. The ambient light setting in your photoshop color settings is not set at "medium". Change it to "medium" then Photoshop writes out 1/g as you would expect. I first noticed thuis bug in Photoshop 4 in beta, and reported it then, but it has not been fixed yet. -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jul 2 16:39:32 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA18559 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:39:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA11480 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:43:15 -0500 Received: from mail1.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.3.125]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id QAA11475 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:43:11 -0500 Received: by INET-IMC-01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) id ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:37:53 -0700 Message-ID: <71F299426E8CCF11B05600805F6809DF020D0A23@cup-01-msg.dns.microsoft.com> From: John Bowler To: PNG List Subject: RE: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:37:46 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List From: Chris Lilley [mailto:chris@w3.org] >John Bowler wrote: >> Further >> experiment shows that PS5 writes 1/2*g into the gAMA chunk, where "g" is the >> value given in the RGB profile dialog. > >Aha. A prediction. The ambient light setting in your photoshop color >settings is not set at "medium". Change it to "medium" then Photoshop >writes out 1/g as you would expect. I first noticed thuis bug in >Photoshop 4 in beta, and reported it then, but it has not been fixed >yet. I couldn't find any provision to specify the ambient light level - although monitor calibration now uses a separately utility (which doesn't seem to exist in my installation) so it may be in there. PhotoShop4 would reliably write out the gamma value as specified in the monitor calibration dialog - I had not changed the ambient light levels. I don't see why it should be possible to specify the ambient light levels for output in PhotoShop5 - sRGB defines an ambient light level. When I look at the JPEG output for the same image with an sRGB output profile selected (so the PNG has a gAMA of 0.27277) it has an ICC profile which seems to claim to be sRGB. Unfortunately I don't have the code or knowledge to further decode this, but my guess is that it is just a standard sRGB profile - in which case the PNG gAMA should be 45455! John Bowler -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jul 2 16:54:47 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA18729 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:54:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA11820 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:58:40 -0500 Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [156.153.255.226]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id QAA11814 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:58:37 -0500 Received: from boi-itex02.boi.hp.com (hpb16977.boi.hp.com [15.98.113.190]) by palrel3.hp.com (8.8.5/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id OAA29837 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by hpb16977.boi.hp.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:57:50 -0600 Message-ID: <212BCC3857C6D111930A0800099B19B1ADE7C9@hpb16977.boi.hp.com> From: "Stokes, Michael" To: "'PNG List'" Subject: RE: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:57:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Here's a library to dump ICC contents. > ---------- > From: Graeme Gill[SMTP:GraemeGill@access.net.au] > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 1998 6:28 AM > To: Todd_Newman@cisnc.canon.com > Subject: I've made my ICC color profile access library available. > > Greetings: > > I thought you may be interested in an ICC color profile format > access library that I have made available at > . > > Overview > -------- > > The package contains a C software implementation of the ICC Profile > Format, Version 3.4. (Please refer to the , for > the > profile format specifications.) > > In summary this library provides: > > Full source code. > Support for all header elements, Tags and Tag Types. > Conversion to/from machine native representation of all data > types. > Support for user defined Tags. > Support for Tag type sharing within a file (often used for > sharing > LUTs amongst intents). > Support for reading/writing embedded profiles. > Attempts to be platform neutral. > Loads Tag Types on demand to conserve memory space. > > Also available is a simple utility, iccdump, that will dump the > contents > of ICC profile files in a human readable form. This is available as a > Linux executable and Windows NT executable as well as source. > > Enjoy :-) > > Graeme Gill. > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Bowler [mailto:johnbo@microsoft.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 1998 3:38 PM > To: PNG List > Subject: RE: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ > > > From: Chris Lilley [mailto:chris@w3.org] > >John Bowler wrote: > >> Further > >> experiment shows that PS5 writes 1/2*g into the gAMA > chunk, where "g" is > the > >> value given in the RGB profile dialog. > > > >Aha. A prediction. The ambient light setting in your photoshop color > >settings is not set at "medium". Change it to "medium" then Photoshop > >writes out 1/g as you would expect. I first noticed thuis bug in > >Photoshop 4 in beta, and reported it then, but it has not been fixed > >yet. > > I couldn't find any provision to specify the ambient light > level - although > monitor calibration now uses a separately utility (which > doesn't seem to > exist in my installation) so it may be in there. PhotoShop4 > would reliably > write out the gamma value as specified in the monitor > calibration dialog - I > had not changed the ambient light levels. I don't see why it > should be > possible to specify the ambient light levels for output in > PhotoShop5 - sRGB > defines an ambient light level. > > When I look at the JPEG output for the same image with an sRGB output > profile selected (so the PNG has a gAMA of 0.27277) it has an > ICC profile > which seems to claim to be sRGB. Unfortunately I don't have > the code or > knowledge to further decode this, but my guess is that it is > just a standard > sRGB profile - in which case the PNG gAMA should be 45455! > > John Bowler > > -- > Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu > -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jul 2 20:36:09 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA19821 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 20:36:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id UAA14525 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 20:40:11 -0500 Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id UAA14520 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 20:40:08 -0500 Received: by mail2-b.microsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2166.0) id ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 18:34:49 -0700 Message-ID: <71F299426E8CCF11B05600805F6809DF020D0A9C@cup-01-msg.dns.microsoft.com> From: John Bowler To: PNG List Subject: RE: PNG 1.1 proposal, draft 1.1.0 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 18:34:47 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2166.0) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List From: amc@cs.berkeley.edu [mailto:amc@cs.berkeley.edu] >Draft 1.1.0 of the PNG 1.1 proposal is available from: One small point which I just noticed, the sRGB section contains: Blue y: 06000 which might lead an innocent C programmer to enter: static const SPNG_U32 vuwrgbXY[8] = { 31270, // White X 32900, 64000, // Red X 33000, 30000, // Green X 60000, 15000, // Blue X 06000 }; (which is what I just did.) The "06000" is, of course, octal. The specification should probably use a leading space instead of a leading zero. John Bowler -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jul 2 22:40:55 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA20322 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 22:40:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id WAA15365 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 22:44:46 -0500 Received: from auriga.pixelphoto.com.au (auriga.pixelphoto.com.au [203.36.107.1]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id WAA15360 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 22:44:41 -0500 Received: from [203.36.107.87] by auriga.timestone.com.au (NTMail 3.03.0014/3a.aaen) with ESMTP id ca002134 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:39:37 -1100 Message-ID: <359C52BB.AADF4B2A@pobox.com.au> Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 13:40:44 +1000 From: Richard Browne X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: My kingdom for a Window image editor with proper PNG transparency support References: <199806191307.GAA00862@shell.wco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Hi Greg > At the moment the best PNG-supporting app besides pnmtopng appears to > be Fireworks. I haven't done thorough tests on it yet, but so far it's > scored better than anything else. It may support simple transparency > for RGB images, too. Thanks, I took a look at Fireworks. It looks like a good app. I found also something else that you might be interested in. ULead Smartsaver (a $40 Photoshop plugin) supports all PNG transparency options - 8/24 tRNS chunk and full alpha channel support. It can read Photoshop PSD files, amongst others. It's quite good - not perfect, but easily the best I've found. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 3 05:37:29 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA22338 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 05:37:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id FAA19191 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 05:41:37 -0500 Received: from sophia.inria.fr (sophia.inria.fr [138.96.32.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id FAA19186 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 05:41:34 -0500 Received: from w3.org by sophia.inria.fr (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA22881 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:36:11 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: sophia.inria.fr: Host clill-pm.inria.fr [138.96.224.138] claimed to be w3.org Message-ID: <359CB44A.C5E46681@w3.org> Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 12:36:58 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ References: <71F299426E8CCF11B05600805F6809DF020D0A23@cup-01-msg.dns.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List John Bowler wrote: > > From: Chris Lilley [mailto:chris@w3.org] > >Aha. A prediction. The ambient light setting in your photoshop color > >settings is not set at "medium". Change it to "medium" then Photoshop > >writes out 1/g as you would expect. I first noticed thuis bug in > >Photoshop 4 in beta, and reported it then, but it has not been fixed > >yet. > > I couldn't find any provision to specify the ambient light level - although > monitor calibration now uses a separately utility (which doesn't seem to > exist in my installation) so it may be in there. In Photoshop 4 -- File menu, Color Settings, Monitor Setup. That gives a dialog box with a pull down menu of (some) monitors, provision to set the gamma, white point and phosphors to custom values and, down at the bottom there, a control labelled Room Parameters which has a pull-down menu called Ambient Light. The possible values are low medium and high. With Medium, Photoshop writes out 1/gamma. With Low or High settings it vastly changes the gamma to wierd values. For example I set the monitor gamma to 2.2. With the ambient setting at medium, PS4 wrote out a gAMA of 0.45454. With High, it wrote out 0.22727 (1/2*gamma) and with Low, it wrote out 0.68181 (1.5/gamma) > PhotoShop4 would reliably > write out the gamma value as specified in the monitor calibration dialog It would, provided that as you say > - I had not changed the ambient light levels. from the default value of medium. > I don't see why it should be > possible to specify the ambient light levels for output in PhotoShop5 - sRGB > defines an ambient light level. But the others don't, and the others are just phosphor sets. And the ambient correction, if any, in sRGB happens by declaration in the profile not by twiddling round with the gamma values. So, it seems that Photoshop 5 is wrong, whereas Photoshop 4 had at least the possibility of being right. > When I look at the JPEG output for the same image with an sRGB output > profile selected (so the PNG has a gAMA of 0.27277) it has an ICC profile > which seems to claim to be sRGB. Unfortunately I don't have the code or > knowledge to further decode this, but my guess is that it is just a standard > sRGB profile - in which case the PNG gAMA should be 45455! And do the PNG and JPEG have similar tonal values when displayed in an application that is ICC-aware? I suspect not, if the gAMA is that screwwy. -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 3 17:53:57 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA25039 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:53:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA25902 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:57:56 -0500 Received: from www10.w3.org (www10.w3.org [18.23.0.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA25897 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:57:52 -0500 Received: from fw.rexrothmecman.se ([194.218.158.22]) by www10.w3.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA13354 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:52:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: www10.w3.org: Host [194.218.158.22] claimed to be fw.rexrothmecman.se Received: by fw.rexrothmecman.se; id BAA05931; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 01:02:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 01:02:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ip162.malibu4.ca.pub-ip.psi.net(38.29.52.162) by fw.rexrothmecman.se via smap (4.0a) id xmasd2770; Sat, 4 Jul 98 01:01:54 +0200 From: **Bull*s*Eye <2fn27t@ibm.net> To: Received: from SMTP.XServer (Smail4.1.19.1 #20) id m0wBzN7-009vdR; Thursday, June 11th, 1998 Received: from mail.apache.net(really [164/187]) by relay.comanche.com Tuesday, June 9th, 1998 Received: from 32776.21445(really [80110/80111]) by relay.denmark.nl Sunday, June 7th, 1998 Received: from local.nethost.org(really [24553/24554]) by relay.SS621.net Saturday, June 6th, 1998 Message-Id: <19943672.886214@relay.comanche.denmark.eu> Friday, June 12th, 1998 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Authenticated sender is <2fn27t@ibm.net> Subject: *Bull*s-Eye-Software Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit EMAIL MARKETING WORKS!! 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FAX # (USA) 1 (561) 792-6175. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Jul 4 19:12:21 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA00378 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 19:12:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id TAA06467 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 19:16:23 -0500 Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id TAA06462 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 19:16:19 -0500 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA07237 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 19:10:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sjc-ca1-19.ix.netcom.com(207.94.249.51) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma007227; Sat Jul 4 19:10:26 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980704171102.009329b0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: jcbowler@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 17:11:02 -0700 To: PNG List From: John Bowler Subject: RE: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ In-Reply-To: <212BCC3857C6D111930A0800099B19B1ADE7C9@hpb16977.boi.hp.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 15:57 02/07/98 -0600, Michael Stokes wrote: >Here's a library to dump ICC contents. >> From: Graeme Gill[SMTP:GraemeGill@access.net.au] >> I thought you may be interested in an ICC color profile format >> access library that I have made available at >> . I incorporated this into my own JPEG dumping program, then produced various JPEG and PNG images from a set of IIEJ sRGB test images using PhotoShop 5.0. (These include TIFF versions of the same image encoded in XYZ, Lab and sRGB.) I used PhotoShop to convert the Lab version to sRGB (profile to profile) as well as saving the sRGB file directly. My RGB (output) profile was set to "sRGB" in PhotoShop. Everything which I could determine from the ICC profile (based on my limited knowledge) suggested that it is an unmodified sRGB profile. The 'rTRC' 'curv' attribute, which transforms encoded values into linear values, is an exact fit (within 1%) for the "encoding characteristics" equations in the sRGB draft (i.e. IEC61966-2-1). Hardly surprising as the comments in the profile refer to this standard in several places :-) The PNG image produced by PhotoShop: File: P4lab-sRGBx4.png (1243756 bytes) chunk IHDR at offset 0x0000c, length 13 768 x 1024 image, 24-bit RGB, non-interlaced chunk gAMA at offset 0x00025, length 4: 0.22727 chunk cHRM at offset 0x00035, length 32 White x = 0.31269 y = 0.32899, Red x = 0.63999 y = 0.32998 Green x = 0.29998 y = 0.59999, Blue x = 0.14999 y = 0.05999 chunk IDAT at offset 0x00061, length 1243639 zlib: deflated, 32K window, default compression chunk IEND at offset 0x12fa64, length 0 No errors detected in P4lab-sRGBx4.png (47.3% compression). Has the same, or very similar, pixel values to the JPEG file (I binary edited the file to have a gAMA of 0.45455 then viewed both the PNG and the JPEG file in programs which I know display the JPEG file with no gamma correction.) Both also display identically in PhotoShop (with or without the changed gAMA chunk). More experiments show that PS5, like PS4, is invariably reading PNG as a device dependent format - it does not correct colors on input, whereas it does do this to a JPEG with an ICC APP2 marker. Unfortunately at the same time it writes out the color space information (based on the RGB output profile) but then gets the gAMA chunk wrong (by a factor of 2.) I can't see a good way round this - it is possible to use the sRGB output profile and set the gamma to 1.1, but this is used in import and display of images. A complex set of options involving preventing convertion on image load may be possible to work round this, but I can't imagine anyone actually doing it :-( John Bowler -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jul 6 12:17:06 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA15605 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:17:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id MAA26195 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:20:06 -0500 Received: from www10.w3.org (www10.w3.org [18.23.0.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id MAA26190 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:20:02 -0500 Received: from 207.181.100.101 (stn-on1-37.netcom.ca [207.181.100.101]) by www10.w3.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA13830; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807061713.NAA13830@www10.w3.org> X-Authentication-Warning: www10.w3.org: Host stn-on1-37.netcom.ca [207.181.100.101] claimed to be 207.181.100.101 From: kimb@epage.com To: @w3.org Subject: Online Marketing X-Reply-To: xroma@netcom.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List ONLINE MARKETING - THE NEXT GENERATION OF ADVERTISING/MARKETING Complete Online Marketing Solutions: At Estroco Technologies, we provide all the tools necessary to promote your business/organization. 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I am an engineer in the ColorSync group at Apple, and we are working on implementations of color matching within web browsers as well as web sites. In addition to proposing standards for associating ICC profiles with images and within CSS, we are interested in ensuring that each graphics file format has a way of referencing or containing ICC profiles. This is currently the case for JFIF and GIF images. I was told by another engineer here that there was a proposal for how this would work within PNG files, but I don't see it in the spec. It looks like it is possible to infer an ICC profile from the 'cHRM' and 'gAMA' chunks, however, in many cases this information would be *derived* from an ICC profile. This is certainly the most accessible source of this information, and it becomes the most convenient container for it once these chunks have been decoded - as the resulting profile can be then given to the display software for appropriate rendering with an ICC-based color management system. However there must be code written on both ends to encode and decode ICC profile data into these chunk formats, so it seems more powerful to simply support embedding the entire profile, which can contain additional information on how to best recreate the image. Is there any movement in this direction on the part of your committee? How should I propose that there be a 'iCCp' chunk? Should I simply propose a 'icCp' chunk and evangelize it? Thanks for any information and assistance you can give. -Eric Broadbent -------------------------------------- Eric Broadbent ebb3@apple.com ColorSync Engineer Apple Computer, Inc. 408-974-9189 -------------------------------------- -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 8 18:49:29 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA08817 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:49:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA29406 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:54:19 -0500 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA29399 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:54:14 -0500 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA00444; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:48:15 -0400 (EDT) To: Eric Broadbent cc: PNG List Subject: Re: PNG Spec question In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 8 Jul 98 16:24:28 -0700 <199807082321.QAA06598@scv1.apple.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 19:48:14 -0400 Message-ID: <442.899941694@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Eric Broadbent writes: > Is there any movement in this direction > on the part of your committee? How should I propose that there be a > 'iCCp' chunk? Should I simply propose a 'icCp' chunk and evangelize it? There is in fact a proposal for an iCCP extension chunk on the table right now. Perhaps you'd like to join the PNG list and help move it along, or at least make sure that the proposal meets your needs. (See the png-list archives for 22 Jun 1998, and some older messages that I don't have in front of me.) There is also a proposal for an sRGB chunk, which you might be interested in. regards, tom lane -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 8 19:59:14 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA10112 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:59:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id UAA29868 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:03:48 -0500 Received: from auriga.pixelphoto.com.au (auriga.pixelphoto.com.au [203.36.107.1]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id UAA29862 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:03:43 -0500 Received: from [203.36.107.80] by auriga.timestone.com.au (NTMail 3.03.0014/3a.aaen) with ESMTP id ja002219 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:58:28 -1100 Message-ID: <35A415FB.E7320926@pobox.com.au> Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 10:59:40 +1000 From: Richard Browne X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List CC: Eric Broadbent Subject: Re: PNG Spec question References: <199807082321.QAA06598@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Eric Broadbent wrote: > > standards for associating ICC profiles with images and within CSS, we are > interested in ensuring that each graphics file format has a way of > referencing or containing ICC profiles. This is currently the case for > JFIF and GIF images. I was told by another engineer here that there was > a proposal for how this would work within PNG files, but I don't see it > in the spec. I'm probably going to make myself seem ignorant here, but isn't embedding an ICC profile into each and every image on say, a web page, rather excessive?? Surely it makes more sense to calibrate each image to a device independent colour space. When the image is displayed, the output device can make a neutral --> device colour space link. ?? -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 8 20:24:10 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA10577 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:24:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id UAA00158 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:28:57 -0500 Received: from mail1.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.3.125]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id UAA00153 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:28:55 -0500 Received: by INET-IMC-01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) id <3PS6QH5G>; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:23:02 -0700 Message-ID: <71F299426E8CCF11B05600805F6809DF020D0F26@cup-01-msg.dns.microsoft.com> From: John Bowler To: PNG List Cc: Eric Broadbent Subject: RE: PNG Spec question Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 18:23:01 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List From: Richard Browne [mailto:richb@pobox.com.au] >I'm probably going to make myself seem ignorant here, but isn't >embedding an ICC profile into each and every image on say, a web page, >rather excessive?? Surely it makes more sense to calibrate each image to >a device independent colour space. When the image is displayed, the >output device can make a neutral --> device colour space link. ?? Yes, that's partly why the sRGB chunk exists and why CSS2 says that the colors in an HTML document are sRGB (by implication attached bitmaps with no color information are also sRGB although I think everyone would recommend storing the information explicitly.) Despite this and despite the attraction of using sRGB for all image interchange there are still many circumstances where images are known to have an ICC profile which is not sRGB. When the desire is just to re-encode the image as a PNG having a definition for storing arbitrary ICC profiles in PNG files becomes an extremely useful extension. John Bowler -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 8 22:47:37 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA13494 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:47:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id WAA01475 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:52:01 -0500 Received: from www10.w3.org (www10.w3.org [18.23.0.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id WAA01469 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:51:54 -0500 Received: from mail.goodbrgr.com (midtown-dnnqo-080.compuserve.net [209.154.70.80]) by www10.w3.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA18793; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:45:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: www10.w3.org: Host midtown-dnnqo-080.compuserve.net [209.154.70.80] claimed to be mail.goodbrgr.com Message-ID: <99934.98511@mail.goodbrgr.com> From: "msbiz432d5407@hol.gr" Subject: A NASCAR Related Investmment (8520) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1998 23:45:57 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently-To: Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Looking for a unique investment opportunity? 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Thank you. mailto:nascar001@hotmail.com ************************************************************** 81275 -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 10 09:44:55 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA00780 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:44:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA23465 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:43:55 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id JAA23459 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:43:51 -0500 Received: (qmail 12619 invoked from network); 10 Jul 1998 14:37:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 1998 14:37:14 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA21085; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:37:49 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id HAA10785; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:39:13 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:39:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199807101439.HAA10785@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-announce@dworkin.wustl.edu, png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu, zip-bugs@lists.wku.edu Subject: PNG/Info-ZIP/zlib web sites Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Walnut Creek recently rearranged their web servers; as a result, the links that USED to work for PNG, Info-ZIP and zlib are all broken: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ BROKEN http://www.cdrom.com/pub/infozip/ BROKEN http://www.cdrom.com/pub/infozip/zlib/ BROKEN I'm still sorting out the details, but for now you can simply replace the "www" with "infozip" or "wcarchive": http://infozip.cdrom.com/pub/png/ works http://infozip.cdrom.com/pub/infozip/ works http://infozip.cdrom.com/pub/infozip/zlib/ works I don't know how long "wcarchive" is guaranteed, so don't make any permanent changes just yet... -- Greg Roelofs newt@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~newt/ Newtware, PNG Group, Info-ZIP, Philips Multimedia Center, ... -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 10 11:04:20 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA02580 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:04:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA24146 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:27:57 -0500 Received: from atlrel2.hp.com (atlrel2.hp.com [156.153.255.202]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id KAA24141 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:27:54 -0500 Received: from boi-itex02.boi.hp.com (atlrel2.hp.com [15.10.184.10]) by atlrel2.hp.com (8.8.6/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id LAA21844 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:20:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by hpb16977.boi.hp.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:25:57 -0600 Message-ID: <212BCC3857C6D111930A0800099B19B1ADE816@hpb16977.boi.hp.com> From: "Stokes, Michael" To: PNG List Cc: "'Eric Broadbent (E-mail)'" Subject: icCP chunk proposal - with comments incorporated Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:25:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List OK, I think I've incorporated most of the comments and feedback over the last month. Here are the proposals for the PNG and ICC specification to incoporated ICC profile embedding support into the PNG file format. Michael Proposed additional chunk for the PNG specification icCP International Color Consortium (ICC) Device Characterization Profile If the icCP chunk is present, the image samples conform to the color space represented by the embedded International Color Consortium ICC profile as defined by the [ICC] and this color space must be an RGB or monochrome greyscale color space. The icCP chunk contains: n bytes: profile_name (printable Latin-1 text, 1-79 characters, single embedded blanks ok) 1 byte: null separator 14 bytes: signature ("ICC 1998-07-09") 1 byte: null separator 1 byte: compression_method 0: zlib datastream using DEFLATE n bytes: compressed data stream An application that creates the icCP chunk should also create gAMA and cHRM chunks for compatibility with applications that do not use the icCP chunk. When the icCP chunk is present, applications that recognize it and are capable of color management [ICC] should ignore the gAMA and cHRM chunks and use the icCP chunk instead. Applications that are icCP-aware should take care that there is only a single profile (explicitly or implicitly) attached to a file. Applications that recognize the icCP chunk but are not capable of full-fledged color management should use the gAMA and cHRM chunks. If the icCP chunk appears, it must precede the first IDAT chunk, and it must also precede the PLTE chunk if present. Proposed addition for the ICC specification... Embedding ICC Profiles in PNG files The discussion below assumes some familiarity with PNG internal structure. It is beyond the scope of this document to detail the PNG format and readers are referred to the PNG specification which is available from http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/. This is not a required PNG chunk and baseline PNG readers are not currently required to read it. It is, however, strongly recommended that this chunk be honored by readers that are capable of using ICC color profiles. Only RGB or monochrome greyscale ICC embedded profiles are supported in PNG files. An ICC device profile is embedded, in its entirety, as a single PNG chunk. The structure of the ICC PNG chunk is as follows. n bytes: profile_name (printable Latin-1 text, 1-79 characters, single embedded blanks ok) 1 byte: null separator 14 bytes: signature ("ICC 1998-07-09") 1 byte: null separator 1 byte: compression_method 0: zlib datastream using DEFLATE n bytes: compressed data stream A PNG reader need have no knowledge of the internal structure of an embedded ICC profile and should extract and decompress the profile intact and pass it to the color management system. Michael Stokes Michael_Stokes@hp.com 11311 Chinden Blvd., MS:227 PH:(208)396-4261 Boise, ID 83714 FX:(208)396-5161 -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 10 11:51:27 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA03649 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:51:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA25060 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:51:50 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id LAA25054 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:51:47 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id MAA10378; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:45:43 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980710164150.00eca298@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:41:50 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: icCP chunk proposal - with comments incorporated Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 09:25 AM 7/10/98 -0600, you wrote: >OK, I think I've incorporated most of the comments and feedback over the >last month. Here are the proposals for the PNG and ICC specification to >incoporated ICC profile embedding support into the PNG file format. >Michael > >Proposed additional chunk for the PNG specification > >icCP International Color Consortium (ICC) Device Characterization >Profile > >If the icCP chunk is present, the image samples conform to the color >space represented by the embedded International Color Consortium ICC >profile as defined by the [ICC] and this color space must be an RGB or >monochrome greyscale color space. > >The icCP chunk contains: > n bytes: profile_name (printable Latin-1 text, 1-79 characters, > single embedded blanks ok) > 1 byte: null separator > 14 bytes: signature ("ICC 1998-07-09") > 1 byte: null separator > 1 byte: compression_method > 0: zlib datastream using DEFLATE > n bytes: compressed data stream > >An application that creates the icCP chunk should also create gAMA and >cHRM chunks that approximate the ICC profile >for compatibility with applications that do not use the icCP >chunk. > >When the icCP chunk is present, applications that recognize it and are >capable of color management [ICC] should ignore the gAMA and cHRM chunks >and use the icCP chunk instead. Applications that are icCP-aware should >take care that there is only a single profile >(explicitly or implicitly) attached to a file. Applications that ================== embedded in a file. >recognize the >icCP chunk but are not capable of full-fledged color management should >use the gAMA and cHRM chunks. The profile_name can be any convenient name for referring to the profile; it could be (but not necessarily be) the same as the ASCII portion of the ICC profile description tag, minus its trailing null byte. > >If the icCP chunk appears, it must precede the first IDAT chunk, and it >must also precede the PLTE chunk if present. > >Proposed addition for the ICC specification... > >Embedding ICC Profiles in PNG files >The discussion below assumes some familiarity with PNG internal >structure. It is beyond the scope of this document to detail the PNG >format and readers are referred to the PNG specification which is >available from http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/. This is not a required PNG ============================= http://www.w3.org/TR/ or RFC-2083 >chunk and baseline PNG readers are not currently required to read it. It >is, however, strongly recommended that this chunk be honored by readers >that are capable of using ICC color profiles. Only RGB or monochrome >greyscale ICC embedded profiles are supported in PNG files. > >An ICC device profile is embedded, in its entirety, as a single PNG >chunk. The structure of the ICC PNG chunk is as follows. > n bytes: profile_name (printable Latin-1 text, 1-79 characters, > single embedded blanks ok) > 1 byte: null separator > 14 bytes: signature ("ICC 1998-07-09") > 1 byte: null separator > 1 byte: compression_method > 0: zlib datastream using DEFLATE > n bytes: compressed data stream >A PNG reader need have no knowledge of the internal structure of an >embedded ICC profile and should extract and decompress the profile >intact and pass it to the color management system. The profile_name can be any convenient name for referring to the profile; it could (but not necessarily) be the same as the ASCII portion of the ICC profile description tag, minus its trailing null byte. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 10 13:43:24 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA06045 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:43:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA26228 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:41:43 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id NAA26222 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:41:39 -0500 Received: (qmail 20283 invoked from network); 10 Jul 1998 18:35:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 1998 18:35:01 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29871 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:35:37 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA17470 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:37:02 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:37:02 -0700 Message-Id: <199807101837.LAA17470@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: icCP chunk proposal - with comments incorporated Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >>Embedding ICC Profiles in PNG files >>The discussion below assumes some familiarity with PNG internal >>structure. It is beyond the scope of this document to detail the PNG >>format and readers are referred to the PNG specification which is >>available from http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/. This is not a required PNG > ============================= > http://www.w3.org/TR/ or RFC-2083 ...both of which are linked from the PNG home site. Unlike the two you list, however, the version of the spec on cdrom.com is up to date (in the editorial sense--i.e., broken and obsolescent links are fixed). Of course, that brings up the whole issue of the 1.1 spec, discussion of which has pretty much died. Is everyone in agreement that Adam's proposed changes are OK? Shall we get on with the voting, or at least decide what it is we're going to be voting on? I'd like to be able to cover such changes in the book, and we'd all like the ISO spec to be up to date, and both of those things require some movement on our parts in the next few weeks... Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 10 13:56:15 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA06317 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:56:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA26370 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:55:59 -0500 Received: from mail5.microsoft.com (mail5.microsoft.com [131.107.3.121]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA26365 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:55:56 -0500 Received: by INET-IMC-05 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) id <3P4RRVY7>; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:49:51 -0700 Message-ID: <71F299426E8CCF11B05600805F6809DF020D1184@cup-01-msg.dns.microsoft.com> From: John Bowler To: PNG List Subject: RE: icCP chunk proposal - with comments incorporated Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:49:46 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List From: Greg Roelofs [mailto:newt@pobox.com] >Of course, that brings up the whole issue of the 1.1 spec, discussion >of which has pretty much died. Is everyone in agreement that Adam's >proposed changes are OK? Shall we get on with the voting, or at least >decide what it is we're going to be voting on? I'd like to be able to >cover such changes in the book, and we'd all like the ISO spec to be >up to date, and both of those things require some movement on our parts >in the next few weeks... Yes, although I would like to see the iCCP chunk in 1.1 unless there are objections to this. (I.e. I would like to see iCCP in there, but not if it would hold up 1.1). I believe iCCP is in a voteable (?) state - comments on iCCp seem to be uncontentious editorial changes. John Bowler -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 10 14:18:42 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06856 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:18:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA26805 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:23:51 -0500 Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA26800 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:23:47 -0500 Received: from boi-itex02.boi.hp.com (hpb16977.boi.hp.com [15.98.113.190]) by palrel1.hp.com (8.8.6/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id MAA23065 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by hpb16977.boi.hp.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:22:17 -0600 Message-ID: <212BCC3857C6D111930A0800099B19B1ADE820@hpb16977.boi.hp.com> From: "Stokes, Michael" To: "'PNG List'" Subject: RE: icCP chunk proposal - with comments incorporated Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:22:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List What is the status of the srGB chunk proposal? Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: John Bowler [mailto:johnbo@microsoft.com] > Sent: Friday, July 10, 1998 12:50 PM > To: PNG List > Subject: RE: icCP chunk proposal - with comments incorporated > > > From: Greg Roelofs [mailto:newt@pobox.com] > >Of course, that brings up the whole issue of the 1.1 spec, discussion > >of which has pretty much died. Is everyone in agreement that Adam's > >proposed changes are OK? Shall we get on with the voting, > or at least > >decide what it is we're going to be voting on? I'd like to > be able to > >cover such changes in the book, and we'd all like the ISO spec to be > >up to date, and both of those things require some movement > on our parts > >in the next few weeks... > > Yes, although I would like to see the iCCP chunk in 1.1 > unless there are > objections to this. (I.e. I would like to see iCCP in there, > but not if it > would hold up 1.1). I believe iCCP is in a voteable (?) > state - comments on > iCCp seem to be uncontentious editorial changes. > > John Bowler > > -- > Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu > -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 10 14:42:37 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA07472 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:42:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA26905 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:33:28 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA26899 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:33:25 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id PAA16846; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:27:19 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980710192326.00ec60b0@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:23:26 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: icCP chunk proposal - with comments incorporated Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 11:37 AM 7/10/98 -0700, you wrote: >Of course, that brings up the whole issue of the 1.1 spec, discussion >of which has pretty much died. Is everyone in agreement that Adam's >proposed changes are OK? Shall we get on with the voting, or at least >decide what it is we're going to be voting on? First order of business is (after merging png-list comments into Adam's version) merging Adam's proposal into a full updated master copy. I guess that's my job or tom's; tom seems rather too busy to do it presently, though. >I'd like to be able to >cover such changes in the book, and we'd all like the ISO spec to be >up to date, and both of those things require some movement on our parts >in the next few weeks... I'll start work on the master copy. Adam, have you got a more recent draft of your proposal, or do I have to assimilate the comments on your proposal? Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 10 14:48:26 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA07603 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:48:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA27012 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:39:13 -0500 Received: from mail4.microsoft.com (mail4.microsoft.com [131.107.3.122]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA27007 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:39:11 -0500 Received: by mail4.microsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) id <3P430JX7>; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:33:08 -0700 Message-ID: <71F299426E8CCF11B05600805F6809DF020D11A4@cup-01-msg.dns.microsoft.com> From: John Bowler To: PNG List Subject: RE: icCP chunk proposal - with comments incorporated Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:33:04 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List From: Stokes, Michael [mailto:stokes@hpb16977.boi.hp.com] >What is the status of the srGB chunk proposal? sRGB is approved. The specification was pending editing work to correct the normative references (to IEC 61966). Adam's PNG 1.1 revisions at http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~amc/png/ document the sRGB chunk, including the relevant references, and resolve the issues of interpretation of the gAMA chunk. John Bowler -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 10 14:52:40 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA07727 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:52:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA27079 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:45:52 -0500 Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA27074 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:45:49 -0500 Received: from boi-itex02.boi.hp.com (hpb16977.boi.hp.com [15.98.113.190]) by palrel1.hp.com (8.8.6/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id MAA01314 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by hpb16977.boi.hp.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:27:36 -0600 Message-ID: <212BCC3857C6D111930A0800099B19B1ADE821@hpb16977.boi.hp.com> From: "Stokes, Michael" To: PNG List Subject: icCP chunk proposal with 7/10/98 comments incorporated in Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:27:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Proposed additional chunk for the PNG specification icCP International Color Consortium (ICC) Device Characterization Profile If the icCP chunk is present, the image samples conform to the color space represented by the embedded International Color Consortium ICC profile as defined by the [ICC] and this color space must be an RGB or monochrome greyscale color space. The icCP chunk contains: n bytes: profile_name (printable Latin-1 text, 1-79 characters, single embedded blanks ok) 1 byte: null separator 14 bytes: signature ("ICC 1998-07-09") 1 byte: null separator 1 byte: compression_method 0: zlib datastream using DEFLATE n bytes: compressed data stream An application that creates the icCP chunk should also create gAMA and cHRM chunks that approximate the ICC profile for compatibility with applications that do not use the icCP chunk. When the icCP chunk is present, applications that recognize it and are capable of color management [ICC] should ignore the gAMA and cHRM chunks and use the icCP chunk instead. Applications that are icCP-aware should take care that there is only a single profile (explicitly or implicitly) embedded to a file. Applications that recognize the icCP chunk but are not capable of full-fledged color management should use the gAMA and cHRM chunks. The profile_name can be any convenient name for referring to the profile; it could be (but not necessarily be) the same as the ASCII portion of the ICC profile description tag, minus its trailing null byte. If the icCP chunk appears, it must precede the first IDAT chunk, and it must also precede the PLTE chunk if present. Proposed addition for the ICC specification... Embedding ICC Profiles in PNG files The discussion below assumes some familiarity with PNG internal structure. It is beyond the scope of this document to detail the PNG format and readers are referred to the PNG specification which is available from http://www.w3.org/TR/ or RFC-2083. This is not a required PNG chunk and baseline PNG readers are not currently required to read it. It is, however, strongly recommended that this chunk be honored by readers that are capable of using ICC color profiles. Only RGB or monochrome greyscale ICC embedded profiles are supported in PNG files. An ICC device profile is embedded, in its entirety, as a single PNG chunk. The structure of the ICC PNG chunk is as follows. n bytes: profile_name (printable Latin-1 text, 1-79 characters, single embedded blanks ok) 1 byte: null separator 14 bytes: signature ("ICC 1998-07-09") 1 byte: null separator 1 byte: compression_method 0: zlib datastream using DEFLATE n bytes: compressed data stream A PNG reader need have no knowledge of the internal structure of an embedded ICC profile and should extract and decompress the profile intact and pass it to the color management system. The profile_name can be any convenient name for referring to the profile; it could (but not necessarily) be the same as the ASCII portion of the ICC profile description tag, minus its trailing null byte. Michael Stokes Michael_Stokes@hp.com 11311 Chinden Blvd., MS:227 PH:(208)396-4261 Boise, ID 83714 FX:(208)396-5161 -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 10 15:06:37 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA08060 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:06:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA27300 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:06:24 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id PAA27295 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:06:20 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id QAA18065; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:00:15 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980710195622.00ef7410@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:56:22 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: RE: icCP chunk proposal - with comments incorporated Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 01:22 PM 7/10/98 -0600, you wrote: >What is the status of the srGB chunk proposal? It was approved ca. October 1996 Adam has reformatted it slightly but made no technical changes, in his PNG 1.1 proposal. One debatable thing is whether to change 45000 to 45455 in the gAMA chunk that is supposed to be written along with the sRGB chunk. I would be in favor of such change, but won't fight very hard for it, since that falls in the category of minutia that upsets some of (or at least one of) the list members. Another debatable thing is whether to include it in the PNG spec or the extensions document. I'm in favor of putting it right in the spec. 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I'm in favor of putting it > right in the spec. I am, too. And I agree with John that iCCP should go in there as well, if it can get voted on and approved in time. It isn't so important that it should hold up the PNG 1.1/ISO spec, but there's a very natural connection between gAMA, cHRM, sRGB and iCCP, and it would be nice to have all four listed together (with some "glue" text describing their interrelationships). Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 10 15:25:59 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA08535 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:25:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA27526 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:26:13 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id PAA27521 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:26:09 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id QAA18917; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:20:06 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980710201613.00ee03a0@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:16:13 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: icCP chunk proposal with 7/10/98 comments incorporated in Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 01:27 PM 7/10/98 -0600, you wrote: >Proposed additional chunk for the PNG specification > >icCP International Color Consortium (ICC) Device Characterization >Profile icCP ICC Embedded Profile Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 10 17:52:14 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA11942 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:52:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA29162 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:50:29 -0500 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA29157 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:50:25 -0500 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA01674 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:44:21 -0400 (EDT) To: PNG List Subject: Re: icCP chunk proposal - with comments incorporated In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:23:26 -0400 <1.5.4.32.19980710192326.00ec60b0@netgsi.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:44:20 -0400 Message-ID: <1672.900110660@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson writes: > First order of business is (after merging png-list comments into Adam's > version) merging Adam's proposal into a full updated master copy. I > guess that's my job or tom's; tom seems rather too busy to do it presently, > though. Sorry about that, but I've suffered two full-scale disk crashes in the past ten days --- expect to spend all day tomorrow recovering from the latest. (Replacement drive worked for a week, then crib death I guess...) Volunteer projects have gotten the short end of my schedule. If you want to take the lead, Glenn, it's fine with me. I can help proofread. regards, tom lane -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 10 20:43:36 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA15270 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:43:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id UAA00728 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:47:28 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id UAA00723 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:47:24 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id VAA30223; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:41:19 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980711013726.00ec7d0c@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:37:26 -0400 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: iCCP proposal, 19980710 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I have posted a draft iCCP chunk proposal in ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png/documents iccp_proposal_19980710.txt Let the two-week discussion period begin. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 10 21:20:09 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA15954 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:20:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id VAA01000 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:24:04 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id VAA00993 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:24:01 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id WAA31375; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:17:56 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980711021403.00ec650c@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:14:03 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: iCCP proposal, 19980710 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 09:37 PM 7/10/98 -0400, you wrote: > >I have posted a draft iCCP chunk proposal in >ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png/documents It's in ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png-group/documents >iccp_proposal_19980710.txt > >Let the two-week discussion period begin. > >Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sun Jul 12 11:09:14 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA28424 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:09:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA17598 for png-list-outgoing; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:08:19 -0500 Received: from www10.w3.org (www10.w3.org [18.23.0.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id LAA17592 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:08:12 -0500 From: kelly65@hotmail.com Received: from UPIMSSMTPSYS03 (upimssmtpsys03.email.msn.com [207.68.152.40]) by www10.w3.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA15508 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:01:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: www10.w3.org: Host upimssmtpsys03.email.msn.com [207.68.152.40] claimed to be UPIMSSMTPSYS03 Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR03 - 207.68.143.159 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:01:43 -0700 Received: from hotmail.com - 209.142.6.68 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:59:27 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:19:40 PDT To: , , , , , , , , , X-URL: http://208.201.47.129/freex.html Subject: Dinosaurs in Los Angeles Message-ID: <05e842759150c78UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Dear Valued Customer, hey if you are over 21 and want to see a nice new free xx page i just put up then come to http://208.201.47.129/freex.html if you do not want to recieve this message just put remove in the subject line and send it back -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jul 13 03:16:54 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA03045 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:16:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id DAA24790 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:21:37 -0500 Received: from www10.w3.org (www10.w3.org [18.23.0.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id DAA24785 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:21:28 -0500 From: error3434@juno.com Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR06 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.178]) by www10.w3.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA18798 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 04:15:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: www10.w3.org: Host smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.178] claimed to be UPIMSSMTPUSR06 Received: from juno.com - 209.142.3.33 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:12:19 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:03:45 PDT To: , , , , , , , , , X-URL: http://208.201.47.129/freex.html Subject: free x Message-ID: <072cf1912080d78UPIMSSMTPUSR06@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Dear Valued Customer, hey if you are over 21 and want to see a nice new free xx page i just put up then come to http://208.201.47.129/freex.html if you do not want to recieve this message just put remove in the subject line and send it back -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jul 13 09:09:57 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA04899 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:09:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA28063 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:09:50 -0500 Received: from u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.44.157]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA28058 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:09:47 -0500 Received: (from amc@localhost) by u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.3/8.8.2) id HAA25033; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807131403.HAA25033@u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: PNG 1.1 proposal From: amc@cs.berkeley.edu (Adam M. Costello) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I've been offline for the last 10 days, and I will be extremely busy for the next 3 days, but then I'll resume maintenance of the PNG 1.1 proposal (I've got all the comments in my inbox). There are still a few issues to resolve before we're ready for a vote. AMC -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jul 13 10:18:45 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA05633 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:18:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA28673 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:12:55 -0500 Received: from tiu.arl.mil (tiu.arl.mil [128.63.9.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id KAA28668 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:12:52 -0500 Received: from taylor.arl.mil by TIU.ARL.MIL id aa01503; 13 Jul 98 11:02 EDT Message-ID: <35AA218F.3C38559D@alumni.rpi.edu> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:02:39 -0400 From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; U; IRIX 5.3 IP20) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: PNG 1.1 proposal References: <199807131403.HAA25033@u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Adam M. Costello wrote: > > I've been offline for the last 10 days, and I will be extremely busy > for the next 3 days, but then I'll resume maintenance of the PNG 1.1 > proposal (I've got all the comments in my inbox). There are still a few > issues to resolve before we're ready for a vote. Most of the comments seem to have been accounted for in your June 17 version. I've already started merging that into a new master document. But go ahead with your document, I can deal with any diffs that come up. Do we want to install iCCP now, or wait until we've voted on that separately? I would just as soon proceed in parallel, with the iCCP chunk documented "tentatively, pending approval" in the PNG-1.1 document, and take it out again if it happens to fail. By the way, don't worry much about the section/paragraph numbering. You can proceed as you have with your proposal, but our document maintenance tools take care of the actual numbering. We can easily put sRGB (and iCCP) where they logically belong. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jul 13 11:12:12 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA06116 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:12:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA29480 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:10:10 -0500 Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id LAA29475 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:10:06 -0500 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA17677 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:03:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sji-ca1-105.ix.netcom.com(209.109.232.105) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma017388; Mon Jul 13 11:01:37 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980713090414.00935d30@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: jcbowler@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:04:14 -0700 To: PNG List From: John Bowler Subject: Re: PNG 1.1 proposal In-Reply-To: <35AA218F.3C38559D@alumni.rpi.edu> References: <199807131403.HAA25033@u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 11:02 13/07/98 -0400, Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote: > >Do we want to install iCCP now, or wait until we've voted on that >separately? I would just as soon proceed in parallel, with the iCCP >chunk documented "tentatively, pending approval" in the PNG-1.1 >document, and take it out again if it happens to fail. I agree - having iCCP in there makes the color part of the specification more complete, but having to remove it (unlikely, I think) would not be a big problem. John Bowler -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jul 14 13:00:39 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA20362 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:00:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA17210 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:03:57 -0500 Received: from mail.bcpl.lib.md.us (mail.bcpl.lib.md.us [204.255.212.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA17205 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:03:53 -0500 Received: (from jspath@localhost) by mail.bcpl.lib.md.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA12064; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980714135715.A10537@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:57:15 -0400 From: Webmaster Jim To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Problem with png served by Microsoft IIS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91 X-Face: $[):DI3,{Z,[[9Gb^H.yPU[6-J}^Co2e-J!p*jQ>Q8++K~?Ejg~3#,vmYi;O8E55~r~#wa2 WdUS{+X2e6mt${6._[/U%N~y"Br4L6Lm%S0XI8RRTs"'Dpz]#@hD@I`i@G[Q+'" cKd3Acq&}J;,FhT"6d1[H=*<;o2?Z_RK&He4+Td%v3:47/5;A>0mBqsG-KB8l:\43FGDe;U X-Hack: cough, cough X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91 (1998-04-10) X-Operating-System: SunOS mail 5.5 Generic_103093-06 sun4d sparc SUNW,SPARCserver-1000 X-Organization: planet earth X-Signature: /jes X-Url: "jim's url" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List [Please cc replies to me as I'm not subscribed to this list] I'm having trouble getting Microsoft IIS server (4.0) configured to send png images properly. One problem I have is the instructions for adding a mime type to the registry don't seem to work. The other problem has also been noted by another user, who says Explorer shows the image correctly, but Netscape 4.04 does not (http://demos.href.com:80/planet/png/1test.htm). ------ Marvin the Paranoid Android says: Pausing to reconstruct the whole infrastructure of integral mathematics in his head, he went about his humble task, never thinking to ask for reward, recognition or even a moments ease from the pain in all the diodes down his left side... -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 15 05:02:54 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA26822 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:02:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id FAA28415 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:08:10 -0500 Received: from mh.acorn.co.uk (mh.acorn.co.uk [136.170.131.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id FAA28409 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:08:04 -0500 Received: from kbracey (kbracey [136.170.129.213]) by mh.acorn.co.uk (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA02444; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:01:29 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:02:12 +0100 From: Kevin Bracey To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Cc: jspath@bcpl.net Subject: Re: Problem with png served by Microsoft IIS Message-ID: <2ab0fa6548%kbracey@kbracey.acorn.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <19980714135715.A10537@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> X-Organization: Acorn Computers Ltd, Cambridge, United Kingdom X-Mailer: Messenger v1.40a for RISC OS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.60l Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List In message <19980714135715.A10537@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> Webmaster Jim wrote: > I'm having trouble getting Microsoft IIS server (4.0) configured to > send png images properly. One problem I have is the instructions > for adding a mime type to the registry don't seem to work. The > other problem has also been noted by another user, who says > Explorer shows the image correctly, but Netscape 4.04 does not > (http://demos.href.com:80/planet/png/1test.htm). > As far as I can see, it's configured correctly. Here are the respective sets of response headers seen by my browser: HTTP/1.0 200 OK Date: Wednesday, 15-Jul-98 09:57:37 GMT Server: WebSite/1.1e Allow-ranges: bytes Content-type: image/png Last-modified: Saturday, 07-Mar-98 20:46:19 GMT Content-Length: 6133 HTTP/1.0 200 OK Server: Microsoft-IIS/4.0 Beta 2 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:57:36 GMT Content-Type: image/png Accept-Ranges: bytes Last-Modified: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 20:46:19 GMT ETag: "6088e314a4abd1:0" Content-Length: 6133 I can only suppose that Netscape is setting something in it's request (perhaps the Accept: header?) that causes Microsoft-IIS to react badly. You'll need to get a packet trace, I think. -- Kevin Bracey, Senior Software Engineer Acorn Computers Ltd Tel: +44 (0) 1223 725228 Acorn House, 645 Newmarket Road Fax: +44 (0) 1223 725328 Cambridge, CB5 8PB, United Kingdom WWW: http://www.acorn.co.uk/ -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 15 21:48:14 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA15497 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:48:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id VAA09903 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:53:01 -0500 Received: from www10.w3.org (www10.w3.org [18.23.0.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id VAA09889 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:52:56 -0500 From: factual@nll.se Received: from 207.181.100.201 (stn-on98-09.netcom.ca [207.181.100.201]) by www10.w3.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA17541; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807160245.WAA17541@www10.w3.org> X-Authentication-Warning: www10.w3.org: Host stn-on98-09.netcom.ca [207.181.100.201] claimed to be 207.181.100.201 To: @w3.org Subject: Online Marketing X-Reply-To: medina@pobox.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List ONLINE MARKETING - THE NEXT GENERATION OF ADVERTISING/MARKETING Complete Online Marketing Solutions: At Estroco Technologies, we provide all the tools necessary to promote your business/organization. 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To place an order, send a proposal, or to discuss anything with us: Postal Address: Estroco Technologies 32983 Wills Road Wainfleet, Ontario, Canada L0S 1V0 Email: medina@pobox.com Phone/Fax: (905) 899-3508 Thanks for your attention and time Note: if you don't wish to receive further mailings, please respond to our email address stating this, and you will not receive any mailings from us or will not be place on any email lists, etc. You will just be transferred to our permanent remove list, which will guarantee you receive no mailings form us, or any mailings form lists sold by us. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jul 16 19:16:15 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA13542 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:16:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id TAA23546 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:20:29 -0500 Received: from u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.44.157]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id TAA23540 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:20:21 -0500 Received: (from amc@localhost) by u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.3/8.8.2) id RAA04469; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807170013.RAA04469@u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: PNG 1.1 proposal From: amc@cs.berkeley.edu (Adam M. Costello) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson says: > Do we want to install iCCP now, or wait until we've voted on that > separately? The consensus seems to be to put it in, so it will be in the next revision, which will probably be available tomorrow (Friday). If a vote passes on the entire PNG-1.1 proposal, we won't need separate votes. If it fails, we may have to try removing objectionable pieces until it passes. > ...our document maintenance tools take care of the actual numbering. > We can easily put sRGB (and iCCP) where they logically belong. I know we can, but I think we should preserve the numbering of existing sections (as long as it's easy to do so). There might be documents out there that refer to individual sections of the PNG spec. AMC -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jul 16 22:24:06 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA17077 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:24:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id WAA25285 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:29:30 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id WAA25279 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:29:23 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id XAA26968; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:22:38 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980717031842.00eed050@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:18:42 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: PNG 1.1 proposal Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 05:13 PM 7/16/98 -0700, you wrote: >Glenn Randers-Pehrson says: > >> Do we want to install iCCP now, or wait until we've voted on that >> separately? > >The consensus seems to be to put it in, so it will be in the next >revision, which will probably be available tomorrow (Friday). OK. Put it in in the "registered" form, that I posted the other day for discussion. >> ...our document maintenance tools take care of the actual numbering. >> We can easily put sRGB (and iCCP) where they logically belong. > >I know we can, but I think we should preserve the numbering of existing >sections (as long as it's easy to do so). There might be documents out >there that refer to individual sections of the PNG spec. OK. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jul 16 23:27:15 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA17375 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:27:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id XAA25749 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:27:58 -0500 Received: from u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.44.157]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id XAA25744 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:27:53 -0500 Received: (from amc@localhost) by u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.3/8.8.2) id VAA05975; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807170421.VAA05975@u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: PNG 1.1 proposal draft 1.2.1 From: amc@cs.berkeley.edu (Adam M. Costello) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Draft 1.2.1 of the PNG 1.1 proposal is now available from http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~amc/png/ It changes 06000 to 6000 in the sRGB section, clarifies the two-byte business in bKGD and tRNS, and adds the iCCP chunk (and adds mentions of the iCCP chunk in appropriate places). For the iCCP section, I made a few editorial changes for consistency with the sRGB and zTXt sections, but no material changes. There are still a number of unresolved issues which I'll quote below for convenience, along with my own comments on some of them. * Charles Poynton recently reiterated (to Adam) his claim that CRT_exponent is 2.5, and pointed to: http://www.inforamp.net/~poynton/papers/IST_SPIE_9801/ http://www.awl.com/cseng/titles/0-201-63426-0 The former does not appear to defend the 2.5 figure; it just postulates it. * Should we change all the "exponents" back into "gammas", and call the one that goes in the gAMA chunk PNG_gamma? [I don't care, as long as we're consistent throughout the spec. If no one speaks up, inertia will leave it with "exponent" everywhere.] * Should we combine the encoder gamma and color handling sections? If so, who's going to do it? [Not me, but if someone writes up something, I'll edit it for consistency.] * The color handling stuff has barely been touched. Is it still valid under the new model (using the display output as the reference rather than the camera input), or does it need more edits? * Should we refer to CIE 122? [I think Chris Lilly was going to check into this.] * Is the LUT exponent on the NeXT really 2.22 (as claimed by CSS2) or is it 1/0.45? Does anyone know if it's adjustable, and if so, what is the relation between the LUT exponent and the system "gamma" value? * Should we say anything about constructing gamma correction tables using fixed-point math? [Maybe something like "If floating-point calculations are not possible, gamma correction tables can be computed using fixed-point arithmetic and a precomputed table of logarithms. Example code is available at ftp://ftp.uu.net/graphics/png/gamma-lookup.c." Or is that of interest to too few people to clutter the spec with?] * The proposed encoder gamma handling section says that images grabbed from a video digitizer are probably in the sRGB color space. So if I decide to write an sRGB chunk on that basis, what rendering intent should I use? AMC -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 17 00:21:37 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA17684 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:21:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id AAA26522 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:27:19 -0500 Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id AAA26517 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:27:16 -0500 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA02285 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:20:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sji-ca5-85.ix.netcom.com(209.109.234.85) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002278; Fri Jul 17 00:20:22 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980716222256.0093c100@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: jcbowler@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:22:56 -0700 To: PNG List From: John Bowler Subject: Re: PNG 1.1 proposal draft 1.2.1 In-Reply-To: <199807170421.VAA05975@u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 21:21 16/07/98 -0700, Adam M. Costello wrote: > >There are still a number of unresolved issues which I'll quote below for >convenience, along with my own comments on some of them. > > * Charles Poynton recently reiterated (to Adam) his claim that > CRT_exponent is 2.5, and pointed to: > > http://www.inforamp.net/~poynton/papers/IST_SPIE_9801/ > http://www.awl.com/cseng/titles/0-201-63426-0 That't fine - there is a dispute in the field, there are authorities on both sides, but we don't care. My feeling is that the *right* value for the gamma of a CRT is (far) less important than agreeing on a consistent encoding with a well understood meaning. I think we have that now, if, in the end, it is the "wrong" number then gamma_one reappears for anyone who needs to count photons. That won't be a big problem. [I removed some issues from Adam's list.] > * Should we say anything about constructing gamma correction > tables using fixed-point math? [Maybe something like "If > floating-point calculations are not possible, gamma correction > tables can be computed using fixed-point arithmetic and a > precomputed table of logarithms. Example code is available at > ftp://ftp.uu.net/graphics/png/gamma-lookup.c." Or is that of > interest to too few people to clutter the spec with?] It's inappropriate for a spec I think. My own worries about this were answered. > * The proposed encoder gamma handling section says that images grabbed > from a video digitizer are probably in the sRGB color space. So if > I decide to write an sRGB chunk on that basis, what rendering intent > should I use? Perceptual, it almost always seems to be correct for sampled data. John Bowler -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 17 13:13:32 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA24388 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:13:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA04696 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:15:38 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id NAA04690 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:15:30 -0500 Received: (qmail 16690 invoked from network); 17 Jul 1998 18:08:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 17 Jul 1998 18:08:25 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13037 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:08:47 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA24502 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:10:50 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:10:50 -0700 Message-Id: <199807171810.LAA24502@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: PNG 1.1 proposal draft 1.2.1 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Adam, > There are still a number of unresolved issues which I'll quote below for > convenience, along with my own comments on some of them. > * Charles Poynton recently reiterated (to Adam) his claim that > CRT_exponent is 2.5, and pointed to: This is not an unresolved issue as far as I'm concerned. He thinks it's 2.5; everyone else (i.e., sRGB and those in this group) think it's 2.2. Unless he is suddenly convinced to change his mind (unlikely, it sounds like), that's the way things are going to remain. > * Should we change all the "exponents" back into "gammas", and call > the one that goes in the gAMA chunk PNG_gamma? [I don't care, as > long as we're consistent throughout the spec. If no one speaks up, > inertia will leave it with "exponent" everywhere.] I've decided I like the "exponent" nomenclature and the reasons behind it, so that's what I've used in the gamma/color-space chapter (currently in progress). I vote to leave it as is. > * Should we combine the encoder gamma and color handling sections? > If so, who's going to do it? [Not me, but if someone writes up > something, I'll edit it for consistency.] Unless someone both wants to do it and does it themselves, I suspect inertia will rule, which is fine with me... > * The color handling stuff has barely been touched. Is it still valid > under the new model (using the display output as the reference > rather than the camera input), or does it need more edits? Haven't looked yet. > * Is the LUT exponent on the NeXT really 2.22 (as claimed by CSS2) > or is it 1/0.45? Does anyone know if it's adjustable, and if so, > what is the relation between the LUT exponent and the system "gamma" > value? I'll bounce an e-mail off of Willem and Mark (I need to forward a message from Willem to the list, too). > * Should we say anything about constructing gamma correction > tables using fixed-point math? [Maybe something like "If > floating-point calculations are not possible, gamma correction > tables can be computed using fixed-point arithmetic and a > precomputed table of logarithms. Example code is available at > ftp://ftp.uu.net/graphics/png/gamma-lookup.c." Or is that of > interest to too few people to clutter the spec with?] I would actually vote to tuck this into an appendix. Sample code is always useful, and I firmly believe a reference (such as a spec) should have as much information in it as it takes to help people do the Right Thing. But at the very least, include a pointer to a nearby file, as above. > * The proposed encoder gamma handling section says that images grabbed > from a video digitizer are probably in the sRGB color space. So if > I decide to write an sRGB chunk on that basis, what rendering intent > should I use? I'm definitely interested in an answer to this, too... Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 17 13:53:04 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA25266 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:53:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA05063 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:47:58 -0500 Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA05057 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:47:48 -0500 Received: from boi-itex02.boi.hp.com (exchange.boi.hp.com [15.98.113.190]) by palrel1.hp.com (8.8.6/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id LAA26529 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by hpb16977.boi.hp.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <3089P75G>; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:45:28 -0600 Message-ID: <212BCC3857C6D111930A0800099B19B1ADE897@hpb16977.boi.hp.com> From: "Stokes, Michael" To: "'PNG List'" Subject: RE: PNG 1.1 proposal draft 1.2.1 Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:45:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > From: Greg Roelofs [mailto:newt@pobox.com] > > There are still a number of unresolved issues which I'll > quote below for > > convenience, along with my own comments on some of them. > > > * Charles Poynton recently reiterated (to Adam) his claim that > > CRT_exponent is 2.5, and pointed to: > > This is not an unresolved issue as far as I'm concerned. He thinks > it's 2.5; everyone else (i.e., sRGB and those in this group) think > it's 2.2. Unless he is suddenly convinced to change his mind > (unlikely, > it sounds like), that's the way things are going to remain. I can't provide an immediate answer, but I am working with Barco and Sony (and other CRT manufacturers) to provide a real world answer based on real products and international standards by October. I also plan to meet with Charles at the IS&T/SID color conference in November to walk through all of this. Hopefully, by the end of the year, we'll have consensus and clarity. >From all the information HP, Sony and Barco have, the 2.2 still stands. I will provide all results to this group when we get them together. Michael Stokes Hewlett-Packard Company -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jul 20 11:27:36 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17936 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:27:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA14793 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:29:32 -0500 Received: from www10.w3.org (www10.w3.org [18.23.0.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id LAA14788 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:29:22 -0500 Received: from vampire.xinit.se (vampire.xinit.se [194.14.168.3]) by www10.w3.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04810 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z7 (1Cust165.tnt13.lax3.da.uu.net [153.37.88.165]) by vampire.xinit.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA21050; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:09:53 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:09:53 +0200 (MET DST) From: _(+Bulll*sEye+)*_ To: Received: from SMTP.XServer (Smail4.1.19.1 #20) id m0wBzN7-009vdR; Saturday, June 27th, 1998 Received: from mail.apache.net(really [164/187]) by relay.comanche.com Thursday, June 25th, 1998 Received: from 32776.21445(really [80110/80111]) by relay.denmark.nl Tuesday, June 23rd, 1998 Received: from local.nethost.org(really [24553/24554]) by relay.SS621.net Monday, June 22nd, 1998 Message-Id: <19943672.886214@relay.comanche.denmark.eu> Sunday, June 28th, 1998 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Authenticated sender is Subject: (+(+Bull_s*Eye*Targeting*Software+)+) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit EMAIL MARKETING WORKS!! 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Features of the Bull's Eye Software: * Does TARGETED searches of websites collecting the email addresses you want! * Collects Email addresses by City, State, even specific Countries * Runs Automatically...simply enter the Starting information, press The Start Button, and it does the rest * Filters out duplicates * Keeps track of URLs already visited * Can run 24 hours per day, 7 days per week * Fast and Easy List Management * Also has built in filtering options...you can put in words that it "Must" have while searching,...you can even put in criteria that it "Must NOT Have"...giving you added flexibility * Also imports email addresses from any kind of files (text files, binary files, database files) * List editor handles Multiple files to work on many lists simultaneously * Has a Black-Book feature... avoid sending emails to people who do not want to receive it * Built-in Mail program...send email directly on the internet with just a click of your mouse * Personalized Emails...if the email address has the user's name when it is collected,..you can send Personalized emails!!! * Sort by Location, Server, User Name, Contact Name * Advanced Operations: · Email address lists export in many different formats (HTML, Comma delimited, text file) · Advanced editing...Transfer, Copy, Addition, Delete, Crop, Move to Top/Bottom · Operations between lists...Union, Subtraction, Comparison * Program is Passive,...meaning you can run other programs at the same time CALL FOR MORE INFORMATION 213-980-7850 CALL FOR MORE INFORMATION 213-980-7850 ORDERING INFORMATION Customer Name Company Name Address City State Zip Phone Fax Email Address ______ BULL'S EYE SOFTWARE $259.00 Includes Software, Instructions, Technical Support ______ Shipping & Handling (2-3 Day Fedex) $10.00 (Fedex Overnite) $20.00 ______ TOTAL (CA Residents add applicable sales tax) *All orders are for Win 95 and Win NT *****CREDIT CARDS ACCEPTED***** MASTERCARD VISA AMEX PLEASE CALL 213-980-7850 to process your order 9am-5pm Pacific Time Checks or Money Orders send to: WorldTouch Network Inc. 5670 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2170 Los Angeles, CA 90036 Please note: Allow 5 business days for all checks to clear before order is shipped. *If you would like your email address removed, please write us at the above address. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jul 21 09:03:03 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA25216 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:03:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA01834 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:02:34 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id JAA01829 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:02:30 -0500 Received: (qmail 27042 invoked from network); 21 Jul 1998 13:55:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 1998 13:55:08 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA31118 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 06:55:23 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id GAA28691 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 06:57:46 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 06:57:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199807211357.GAA28691@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: message from our biking buddy Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Willem is well on his way to getting a firsthand feel for the curvature of the Earth; he asked me to pass along this message (from about a week ago). You can see his progress at http://www.schaik.com/cape/cape.html . Greg > How is the book going? Well, you guess right, we are > having a great time. Just did the first 1000 km. Couple > more Mm :-) will have to follow of course. [...] > I'm at this moment even not subscribed to the mailing lists > anymore, so if you could let all the others know that I'm > still alive and generating JPEG's :-) that would be > appreciated. I intend to resurface around end of november. > You're also right about updating my Fra Kapp A Cabo web- > site. I do it with a Toshiba Libretto 50 and a Toshiba > PDR-2 digital camera. Further I took an additional > Compuserver account, just to have local dial-in numbers > in all the countries I pass through. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jul 21 12:39:24 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA26729 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:39:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id MAA04211 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:30:56 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id MAA04206 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:30:52 -0500 Received: (qmail 2078 invoked from network); 21 Jul 1998 17:23:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 1998 17:23:31 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26646; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:23:45 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA01823; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:26:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:26:09 -0700 Message-Id: <199807211726.KAA01823@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: adilger@enel.ucalgary.ca Subject: Re: PNG/Info-ZIP/zlib web sites (fwd) Cc: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I wrote: >> Walnut Creek recently rearranged their web servers; as a result, the >> links that USED to work for PNG, Info-ZIP and zlib are all broken: >> >> http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ BROKEN >> http://www.cdrom.com/pub/infozip/ BROKEN >> http://www.cdrom.com/pub/infozip/zlib/ BROKEN Andreas just responded (privately): > I tested all of these links today (Jul 21) when I was going to change > my bookmarks, etc - all of them work... Maybe it was a temporary > anomaly? I think I forgot to send a follow-up message--sorry! I was somewhat frantic at the time, and there were lots of other things going on. Anyway, the upshot is that all of the formerly broken links above should work fine now and for the foreseeable future. www.cdrom.com is now mirroring the originals (at ftp.cdrom.com) nightly, which means that changes I make won't be immediately visible unless you use the ftp version. But as for changing links, please don't worry about it--things are basically back to normal. I still need to follow up on one or two of the mirrors, though. Thanks, Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 22 17:08:58 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA10403 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:08:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA22918 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:11:07 -0500 Received: from send1b.yahoomail.com (send1b.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.23]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id RAA22913 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:11:04 -0500 Message-ID: <19980722202157.16539.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.241.217.188] by send1b; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:21:57 PDT Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:21:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Soren Andersen Subject: SIGGRAPH To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Is anyone on the PNG list, members of the PNG working group, etc., down here in Orlando for SIGGRAPH this week? If so, would anyone be interested in trying to meet up for a little while? Please reply to sorentin@sprynet.com TIA, soren andersen _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jul 23 09:34:00 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA01847 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:33:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA02738 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:24:38 -0500 Received: from atlrel1.hp.com (atlrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.210]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA02732 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:24:30 -0500 Received: from boi-itex02.boi.hp.com (exchange.boi.hp.com [15.98.113.190]) by atlrel1.hp.com (8.8.6/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id KAA02825 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by hpb16977.boi.hp.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <3089QNR0>; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:20:48 -0600 Message-ID: <212BCC3857C6D111930A0800099B19B1ADE8EA@hpb16977.boi.hp.com> From: "Stokes, Michael" To: "'PNG List'" Subject: RE: SIGGRAPH Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:20:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I'm at CARIBE ROYALE RESORT 14300 INTERNATIONAL DR room 3343 Michael Stokes > -----Original Message----- > From: Soren Andersen [mailto:sorentin@yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 2:22 PM > To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu > Subject: SIGGRAPH > > > Is anyone on the PNG list, members of the PNG working group, etc., > down here in Orlando for SIGGRAPH this week? > > If so, would anyone be interested in trying to meet up for a little > while? > > Please reply to sorentin@sprynet.com > > TIA, > > soren andersen > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > -- > Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu > -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jul 23 10:07:46 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA02643 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:07:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA03183 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:08:10 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id KAA03178 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:08:00 -0500 Received: (qmail 9987 invoked from network); 23 Jul 1998 15:00:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 1998 15:00:26 -0000 Received: from ultraann (solicited-mailing.href.com [208.201.252.123]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA28679; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:00:36 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980723080124.052ecd28@mail.sonic.net> X-Sender: ann@mail.sonic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:01:24 -0700 To: PNG List From: Ann Lynnworth Subject: Re: Problem with png served by Microsoft IIS Cc: jspath@bcpl.net In-Reply-To: <2ab0fa6548%kbracey@kbracey.acorn.co.uk> References: <19980714135715.A10537@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 11:02 AM 7/15/98 +0100, Kevin Bracey wrote: >In message <19980714135715.A10537@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> > Webmaster Jim wrote: > >> I'm having trouble getting Microsoft IIS server (4.0) configured to >> send png images properly. One problem I have is the instructions >> for adding a mime type to the registry don't seem to work. I never did get IIS (4.0) to get the MIME type right. What they did works with their own browsers because their browsers work by file extension mappings, but that is not the standard. If you ever get through to anyone at Microsoft on a solution, do let me know. Best, Ann (owner of the demos.href.com server quoted below.) >>The >> other problem has also been noted by another user, who says >> Explorer shows the image correctly, but Netscape 4.04 does not >> (http://demos.href.com:80/planet/png/1test.htm). >> > >As far as I can see, it's configured correctly. Here are the respective >sets of response headers seen by my browser: > >HTTP/1.0 200 OK >Date: Wednesday, 15-Jul-98 09:57:37 GMT >Server: WebSite/1.1e >Allow-ranges: bytes >Content-type: image/png >Last-modified: Saturday, 07-Mar-98 20:46:19 GMT >Content-Length: 6133 > >HTTP/1.0 200 OK >Server: Microsoft-IIS/4.0 Beta 2 >Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:57:36 GMT >Content-Type: image/png >Accept-Ranges: bytes >Last-Modified: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 20:46:19 GMT >ETag: "6088e314a4abd1:0" >Content-Length: 6133 > >I can only suppose that Netscape is setting something in it's request >(perhaps the Accept: header?) that causes Microsoft-IIS to react badly. >You'll need to get a packet trace, I think. > >-- >Kevin Bracey, Senior Software Engineer >Acorn Computers Ltd Tel: +44 (0) 1223 725228 >Acorn House, 645 Newmarket Road Fax: +44 (0) 1223 725328 >Cambridge, CB5 8PB, United Kingdom WWW: http://www.acorn.co.uk/ > >-- >Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu > > -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jul 23 16:46:32 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA06336 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:46:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA09025 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:46:21 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id QAA09016 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:46:17 -0500 Received: (qmail 24554 invoked from network); 23 Jul 1998 21:38:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 1998 21:38:43 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA26455 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:38:52 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA28059 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:41:27 -0700 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:41:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199807232141.OAA28059@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: NeXT gamma info from Willem Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Adam, Willem doesn't think the NeXT gamma setting is adjustable, but as for the exact value of LUT_exponent (1/2.2 or 1/2.22 or 0.45), he doesn't know--"everyone simply talks about NeXT systems having a gamma of 1.0." So unless Mark has some idea (no response from him) or someone can hack the system and dig out the actual LUT itself, your guess is as good as any. I don't know how hard it would be to find (or infer) the LUT. Aside from the desire for precision in the spec, is there a practical reason to care all that much? If 5% is the recommended no-op threshold, this difference is certainly well below that. (I suppose it would affect the 0.45/0.5 problem, though, huh?) Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 24 14:25:48 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA14537 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:25:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA19844 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:24:37 -0500 Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA19839 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:24:30 -0500 Received: from mailgate.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA33656 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:06:44 -0700 Received: from scv4.apple.com (scv4.apple.com [17.128.100.142]) by mailgate.apple.com (mailgate.apple.com2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:05:00 -0700 Received: from grot (grot.apple.com [17.202.36.101]) by scv4.apple.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA07870; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:04:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199807241904.MAA07870@scv4.apple.com> To: newt@pobox.com, png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: NeXT gamma info from NeXT/Apple Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:04:57 -0700 From: Mike Paquette X-Loop: mpaque@next.com Received: by Apple.Mailer (2.91) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Eric Broadbent asked me to pass this information along to the PNG list. > Willem doesn't think the NeXT gamma setting is adjustable, but as for > the exact value of LUT_exponent (1/2.2 or 1/2.22 or 0.45), he doesn't > know--"everyone simply talks about NeXT systems having a gamma of 1.0." > So unless Mark has some idea (no response from him) or someone can hack > the system and dig out the actual LUT itself, your guess is as good as > any. I don't know how hard it would be to find (or infer) the LUT. > > Aside from the desire for precision in the spec, is there a practical > reason to care all that much? If 5% is the recommended no-op threshold, > this difference is certainly well below that. (I suppose it would affect > the 0.45/0.5 problem, though, huh?) The default hardware gamma correction used in NeXTStep and OPENSTEP systems varies with the target platform, and is tweaked to match typical display hardware for that platform. NeXT Hardware: 1/2.2 Apple Hardware 1.8 Intel Hardware 1.8 HP PA-RISC 1.6 Sun SPARC 1.6 On some platforms, notably many framebuffer cards in 16 bit color mode on Intel platforms, hardware gamma correction is not available. In these cases, we combine software gamma correction with dithering operations used during stroke/fill drawing operations and imaging operations. Applications displaying an image through the PostScript or AppKit mechanisms (see NSBitmapImageRep) should assume that they are working in a calibrated linear color space. Gamma values are selected to map a linear range of framebuffer values into perceptually linear values. We did not choose a linear intensity space because it is perceptually uniform. We chose to use a linear intensity space because calculations such as dithering and compositing are much more straightforward (fast) in the linear case. (i.e. dithering is much easier if when you mix an equal number of white and black pixels you get "0.5 gray".). But, hey, at least we chose a convention and stuck with it. Having said that, we do take advantage of non-linear human perception when possible. For example, our 8bit color palette uses a 6x8x5 color cube with non-linear quantization. Of course, the dithering mixes must still be calculated in a linear space. This gives us more levels towards the darker ends of the spectrum where dithering artifacts tend to be more noticeable. (The goal is to make the 8bit color dithering equally objectionable in all areas of the color cube!) We also include a 16 level linear gray ramp in the palette as well for rendering colors where r=g=b. (Under Windows, we can't quite hog the whole palette so we use a 6x7x5 cube with 16 grays.) We also have a 565 color implementation for OpenStep for Windows (this is Windows 64K color mode). Again, since most Windows framebuffers are not gamma corrected, we assume a non-linear quantization of the framebuffer (i.e. more perceptually uniform) and gamma corrected dithering. The results are virtually indistinguishable from 24bit color. Of course, compositing operations are somewhat tricky since you need to transform the pixels into an intensity-linear space to do the math and the fact that alpha needs to be stored separately. Setting the hardware framebuffer gamma Under OPENSTEP/Mach, you can set the gamma on displays which implement a hardware lookup table using the following bit of PostScript: currentshared true setshared { 1 1.8 div exp } dup dup dup 0 setframebuffertransfer setshared AppKit code can do this with: int isShared; double gamma; NSScreen *currentScreen; // You'll want to enumerate the screens PScurrentshared(&isShared); PSsetshared(YES); [[NSDPSContext currentContext] printFormat: @"{ 1 %f div exp } dup dup dup %d setframebuffertransfer", gamma, [[[currentScreen deviceDescription] objectForKey:@"NSScreenNumber"] intValue]]; PSsetshared(isShared); Remember that multiple screens may be attached. Enumerate the available NSScreen objects and repeat for each screen. SETFRAMEBUFFERTRANSFER - DPS operator extension setframebuffertransfer: redproc greenproc blueproc grayproc fbnum setframebuffertransfer Sets the framebuffer transfer functions in effect for the framebuffer indexed by fbnum. fbnum ranges from 0 to countframebuffers - 1. The framebuffer transfer describes the relationship between the framebuffer values of the display, and the voltage produced to drive the monitor. Important: these transfer functions are outside of the domain of PostScript Level 2's imaging model. NeXT's WindowServer assumes that the framebuffer values are directly proportional to screen brightness. This is important for the accuracy of dithering, compositing, and similar calculations. This API is provided only for the purpose of developers developing screen-calibration products. The default transfer for NeXT Color Displays is "{ 1 2.2 div exp } bind dup dup {}". The procedures must be allocated in shared VM. Monochrome devices will ignore redproc, greenproc, and blueproc, RGB devices will ignore grayproc. ERRORS invalidid, stackunderflow, typecheck SEE ALSO setframebuffertransfer, countframebuffers, framebuffer -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 24 18:57:48 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA16489 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:57:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA23432 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:50:50 -0500 Received: from u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.44.157]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA23427 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:50:43 -0500 Received: (from amc@localhost) by u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.3/8.8.2) id QAA29634; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807242343.QAA29634@u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU> To: mpaque@apple.com, png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: NeXT gamma info from NeXT/Apple From: amc@cs.berkeley.edu (Adam M. Costello) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Mike Paquette says: > The default hardware gamma correction used in NeXTStep and OPENSTEP > systems varies with the target platform, and is tweaked to match typical > display hardware for that platform. > > NeXT Hardware: 1/2.2 > Apple Hardware 1.8 > Intel Hardware 1.8 > HP PA-RISC 1.6 > Sun SPARC 1.6 Thank you. This appears to answer my main question, which was "1/2.2 or 1/2.22 or 0.45?" The answer is 1/2.2, which is not what we had, so I'll fix it in the next draft. I'm still not clear on what's happening, though. Suppose we have an actual NeXT cube (or NeXTstation) and the user (or a user-level application) names a color as an RGB triple. Somewhere along the line something is going to apply an exponent 1/2.2 (which will then combine with the 2.2 exponent of the CRT, yielding an overall linear mapping). Does the Display PostScript interpreter apply the 1/2.2, or is it the display device driver, or some other part of the OS, or the hardware video adapter? I don't know how to interpret the table above. On an Apple system, I think Quickdraw applies no transformation, nor does the display device driver, but MacOS installs a LUT into the video adapter that applies an exponent of 1/1.45. On Wintel boxes there is usually no correction done by the OS nor by the video adapter. Does NeXTSTEP provide any sort of control panel that allows the user to adjust the gamma correction? If so, what is the relationship between the number shown to the user and the exponent applied by the system? AMC -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jul 24 22:08:11 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA24216 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:08:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id WAA24909 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:14:16 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id WAA24904 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:14:09 -0500 Received: (qmail 11492 invoked from network); 25 Jul 1998 03:06:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 1998 03:06:38 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA18388; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:06:45 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id UAA07194; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:09:27 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:09:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199807250309.UAA07194@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: NeXT gamma info from NeXT/Apple Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Mike Paquette says: >> The default hardware gamma correction used in NeXTStep and OPENSTEP >> systems varies with the target platform, and is tweaked to match typical >> display hardware for that platform. >> >> NeXT Hardware: 1/2.2 >> Apple Hardware 1.8 >> Intel Hardware 1.8 >> HP PA-RISC 1.6 >> Sun SPARC 1.6 amc@cs.berkeley.edu (Adam M. Costello) wrote: > I don't know how to interpret the table above. On an Apple system, I > think Quickdraw applies no transformation, nor does the display device > driver, but MacOS installs a LUT into the video adapter that applies an > exponent of 1/1.45. On Wintel boxes there is usually no correction done > by the OS nor by the video adapter. He's talking about OPENSTEP. Neither Quickdraw nor Win are part of that, as far as I've heard. What I don't quite understand, however, is why the LUT exponent is 1.8 (1/1.8??) for Apple and Intel hardware, when presumably the monitors are functionally identical to those on NeXT cubes. It looks to me like the overall file-to-light exponent is then (probably) 1.222, or 1.375 on HP and Sun boxes. Why the difference from NeXT boxes? This doesn't make much sense to me, unless the frame buffers have some sort of lookup table in them, too--but I know that's not the case for Intel hardware. Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Jul 25 19:27:54 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA29500 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:27:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id TAA08558 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:31:26 -0500 Received: from u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.44.157]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id TAA08553 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:31:19 -0500 Received: (from amc@localhost) by u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.3/8.8.2) id RAA07967; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807260023.RAA07967@u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: NeXT gamma info from NeXT/Apple (fwd) From: amc@cs.berkeley.edu (Adam M. Costello) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Message-Id: <199807250159.SAA08702@scv3.apple.com> To: amc@cs.berkeley.edu (Adam M. Costello) Subject: Re: NeXT gamma info from NeXT/Apple Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 18:59:24 -0700 From: Mike Paquette > I'm still not clear on what's happening, though. Suppose we have > an actual NeXT cube (or NeXTstation) and the user (or a user-level > application) names a color as an RGB triple. Somewhere along the line > something is going to apply an exponent 1/2.2 (which will then combine > with the 2.2 exponent of the CRT, yielding an overall linear mapping). > Does the Display PostScript interpreter apply the 1/2.2, or is it the > display device driver, or some other part of the OS, or the hardware > video adapter? Correction for the display gamma is done in the RAMDAC palette on Next hardware, so the values set by the user are preserved in the framebuffer. That is, if a user sets an RGB triple of (0.5, 0.5, 0.5) where 0.0 is minimum and 1.0 is maximum, then, in an 8 bit per channel framebuffer (such as NeXTdimension) the value stored would be 128, with 0 minimum and 255 maximum. The RAMDAC palette will perform the conversion, and the voltage out of the RAMDAC is adjusted to, in this case, provide a 50% of white luminance on the display. > I don't know how to interpret the table above. On an Apple system, I > think Quickdraw applies no transformation, nor does the display device > driver, but MacOS installs a LUT into the video adapter that applies an > exponent of 1/1.45. On Wintel boxes there is usually no correction done > by the OS nor by the video adapter. This is correct. The gamma information (and palette, in 8 bit pseudocolor mode) is merged into a lookup table loaded in the RAMDAC in the video hardware on Apple hardware. > Does NeXTSTEP provide any sort of control panel that allows the user to > adjust the gamma correction? If so, what is the relationship between > the number shown to the user and the exponent applied by the system? There are some third party panels, which display the gamma term to be used in building the RAMDAC correction lookup table. The gamma term is used as follows in determining the lookup table value: exp (1/gamma) That is, a displayed gamma of 2.2 woult result in lookup table applying an exponent of 1/2.2. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sun Jul 26 15:58:25 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA05555 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:58:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA19421 for png-list-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:56:55 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id PAA19416 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 15:56:52 -0500 Received: (qmail 18623 invoked from network); 26 Jul 1998 20:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 1998 20:56:52 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14855; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:56:56 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id NAA03553; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:59:47 -0700 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:59:47 -0700 Message-Id: <199807262059.NAA03553@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: NeXT gamma info from NeXT/Apple (fwd) Cc: mpaque@apple.com Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >>> NeXT Hardware: 1/2.2 >>> Apple Hardware 1.8 >>> Intel Hardware 1.8 >>> HP PA-RISC 1.6 >>> Sun SPARC 1.6 >> I don't know how to interpret the table above. On an Apple system, I >> think Quickdraw applies no transformation, nor does the display device >> driver, but MacOS installs a LUT into the video adapter that applies an >> exponent of 1/1.45. On Wintel boxes there is usually no correction done >> by the OS nor by the video adapter. > This is correct. The gamma information (and palette, in 8 bit > pseudocolor mode) is merged into a lookup table loaded in the RAMDAC in > the video hardware on Apple hardware. So is Mike (or Eric) claiming that OPENSTEP on Apple hardware actually loads an exponent of 1.8, resulting in a file-to-output exponent of 1.8*2.2 == 3.96??? Or are all of the non-NeXT values given above typos? And more to the point, does anybody have any clue why OPENSTEP defines all of these different values when a monitor is a monitor is a monitor? Is there another LUT on workstations? Why is the Intel value apparently wrong (i.e., resulting in neither 1.0 nor 2.2 output)? For that matter, why is the Apple value different both from the standard MacOS value and from the usual Intel value? Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sun Jul 26 21:49:11 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA07034 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:49:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id VAA23274 for png-list-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:44:38 -0500 Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id VAA23269 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:44:35 -0500 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA08055; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:44:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sji-ca4-91.ix.netcom.com(205.186.212.219) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma008032; Sun Jul 26 21:44:14 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980726194627.0093f2b0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: jcbowler@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:46:27 -0700 To: PNG List From: John Bowler Subject: Re: NeXT gamma info from NeXT/Apple (fwd) Cc: mpaque@apple.com In-Reply-To: <199807262059.NAA03553@bolt.sonic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 13:59 26/07/98 -0700, Greg Roelofs wrote: >>>> NeXT Hardware: 1/2.2 >>>> Apple Hardware 1.8 >>>> Intel Hardware 1.8 >>>> HP PA-RISC 1.6 >>>> Sun SPARC 1.6 > >So is Mike (or Eric) claiming that OPENSTEP on Apple hardware actually >loads an exponent of 1.8, resulting in a file-to-output exponent of >1.8*2.2 == 3.96??? Or are all of the non-NeXT values given above typos? The code fragments in the email suggest that the NeXT value is 1/ whereas the others are : >>>> { 1 1.8 div exp } dup dup dup 0 setframebuffertransfer ... >>>> The default transfer for NeXT Color Displays is >>>> "{ 1 2.2 div exp } bind dup dup {}". The procedures must be allocated in Although notice that the fourth parameter in the NeXT example is a no-op - implying that the transfer function for a grayscale device is not changed (the first three PostScript functions are the functions for r,g,b, the fourth is for gray, the appropriate functions are used for the actual device.) Apple's developer site (developer.apple.com) actually has more information (search for setframebuffertransfer): "Note: setframebuffertransfer is unsupported on the current generation of NeXT monochrome displays." Clearly the intent is to make the overall display system gamma 1.0. It may be that setframebuffertransfer makes further adjustments in a system-dependent fashion, but I suspect not, so the overall transfer functions (expressed as c^ - the light output as a result of "c" in the frame buffer) would be: NeXT: 1.0 Apple, Intel: 1.22 HP, Sun: 1.38 which is a significant variation but not as great as that between MacOS and Windows systems (1.45). John Bowler -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jul 27 15:00:10 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA13821 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:00:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA04526 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:46:09 -0500 Received: from cosrel1.hp.com (cosrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.170]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA04518 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:46:04 -0500 Received: from boi-itex02.boi.hp.com (exchange.boi.hp.com [15.98.113.190]) by cosrel1.hp.com (8.8.6/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id NAA10055 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:45:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: by hpb16977.boi.hp.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <3089QYK4>; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:47:56 -0600 Message-ID: <212BCC3857C6D111930A0800099B19B1ADE910@hpb16977.boi.hp.com> From: "Stokes, Michael" To: "'PNG List'" Cc: mpaque@apple.com Subject: RE: NeXT gamma info from NeXT/Apple (fwd) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:47:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I just confirmed with the HP PA-RISC graphics folks that HP does not apply any different processing than does the Intel Hardware and HP is at a loss to explain the differences that NeXT indicates between the platforms. Michael Stokes Hewlett-Packard Company > -----Original Message----- > From: John Bowler [mailto:jbowler@acm.org] > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 1998 8:46 PM > To: PNG List > Cc: mpaque@apple.com > Subject: Re: NeXT gamma info from NeXT/Apple (fwd) > > > At 13:59 26/07/98 -0700, Greg Roelofs wrote: > >>>> NeXT Hardware: 1/2.2 > >>>> Apple Hardware 1.8 > >>>> Intel Hardware 1.8 > >>>> HP PA-RISC 1.6 > >>>> Sun SPARC 1.6 > > > >So is Mike (or Eric) claiming that OPENSTEP on Apple > hardware actually > >loads an exponent of 1.8, resulting in a file-to-output exponent of > >1.8*2.2 == 3.96??? Or are all of the non-NeXT values given > above typos? > > The code fragments in the email suggest that the NeXT value is > 1/ whereas the others are : > > >>>> { 1 1.8 div exp } dup dup dup 0 setframebuffertransfer > ... > >>>> The default transfer for NeXT Color Displays is > >>>> "{ 1 2.2 div exp } bind dup dup {}". The procedures > must be allocated > in > > Although notice that the fourth parameter in the NeXT example > is a no-op - > implying that the transfer function for a grayscale device is > not changed > (the first three PostScript functions are the functions for r,g,b, the > fourth is for gray, the appropriate functions are used for > the actual device.) > > Apple's developer site (developer.apple.com) actually has > more information > (search for setframebuffertransfer): > > "Note: setframebuffertransfer is unsupported on the current > generation of > NeXT monochrome displays." > > Clearly the intent is to make the overall display system > gamma 1.0. It may > be that setframebuffertransfer makes further adjustments in a > system-dependent fashion, but I suspect not, so the overall transfer > functions (expressed as c^ - the light output as a result > of "c" in the > frame buffer) would be: > > NeXT: 1.0 > Apple, Intel: 1.22 > HP, Sun: 1.38 > > which is a significant variation but not as great as that > between MacOS and > Windows systems (1.45). > > John Bowler > > > -- > Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu > -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jul 28 09:53:13 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA02226 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:53:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA14907 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:49:20 -0500 Received: from www10.w3.org (www10.w3.org [18.23.0.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA14902 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:49:15 -0500 From: bsahlberg@futureforms.com Received: from www.abiz.net (utah.abiz.net [209.69.27.6]) by www10.w3.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA12219 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:49:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:49:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807281449.KAA12219@www10.w3.org> X-Authentication-Warning: www10.w3.org: Host utah.abiz.net [209.69.27.6] claimed to be www.abiz.net Received: from [209.69.27.114] by www.abiz.net (SMTPD32-3.04) id A4435720204; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:46:27 -0400 To: Subject: Accessible Electronic Forms and Employment Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Hello, We have been developing electronic forms for mainstream organizations for some time now. We have shown business how to save money and increase productivity using our forms again and again. During all of this time we have noticed that not all employees have been able to take advantage of our product. For the last year this has all changed. Our form solutions have allowed people with accessibility needs to take advantage of electronic forms, and have found that they can then be allowed to be every bit as productive as thier counterpart employees. Our objective has become one of offering ALL employees the opportunity to be competitively employed. The barrier of being able to complete the paperwork used by a business, will not be an issue for any employee. In addition, the employer will recieve soft cost productivity savings and hard cost forms savings. We want to make you aware of our products, and to be part of the solution for keeping people employed and businesses productive. 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We can be reached toll free 1-888-786-6455, ext. 227, or by e-mail to bsahlberg@futureforms.com Sincerely, Bill Sahlberg, FutureForms -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jul 28 16:07:40 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA08122 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:07:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA19737 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:53:36 -0500 Received: from www10.w3.org (www10.w3.org [18.23.0.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id PAA19732 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:53:20 -0500 Received: from pathfinder.nexlinx.net.pk (pathfinder.nexlinx.net.pk [208.240.62.10]) by www10.w3.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16577 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:53:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saqib (user129.nexlinx.net.pk [208.240.62.129]) by pathfinder.nexlinx.net.pk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA04728 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:54:44 +0500 Message-ID: <000701bdba6a$71778580$813ef0d0@saqib> From: "Khurram Sardar" To: Subject: Seeking information about png and other latest graphics file formats. Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:57:10 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDBA94.3285D640" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDBA94.3285D640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Respectable members of the group, I am a student and I want to know about all the sites of png. I = also wish to know other newly introduced graphics file formats and = internet references to them. Please help me in knowing about latest = graphics file format technologies. I am a student of FAST ( Foundation = for Advancement of Science and Technology Pakistan). It will be very = nice if you can mail me the latest png,mng file format specification. I = shall be waiting for your response. Please mail me as soon as possible. Thanking You. Khurram Sardar. skf@nexlinx.net.pk. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDBA94.3285D640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Respectable members of the = group,
        I am=20 a student and I want to know about all the sites of png. I also wish to = know=20 other newly introduced graphics file formats and internet references to = them.=20 Please help me in knowing about latest graphics file format = technologies. I am a=20 student of FAST ( Foundation for Advancement of Science and Technology=20 Pakistan). It will be very nice if you can mail me the latest png,mng = file=20 format specification. I shall be waiting for your response. Please mail = me as=20 soon as possible.
Thanking You.
Khurram Sardar.
skf@nexlinx.net.pk.
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDBA94.3285D640-- -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jul 28 16:56:06 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA08623 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:56:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA20503 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:38:15 -0500 Received: from www10.w3.org (www10.w3.org [18.23.0.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id QAA20498 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:38:08 -0500 Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [206.125.69.81]) by www10.w3.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17095 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:37:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vader.boutell.com by boutell.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA10479; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:35:49 -0700 Received: from localhost (boutell@localhost) by vader.boutell.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09629; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:42:10 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:42:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Boutell To: PNG List cc: png-group@w3.org Subject: Re: Seeking information about png and other latest graphics file formats. In-Reply-To: <000701bdba6a$71778580$813ef0d0@saqib> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Khurram Sardar wrote: > Respectable members of the group, > I am a student and I want to know about all the sites of png. I also wish to know other newly introduced graphics file formats and internet references to them. Please help me in knowing about latest graphics file format technologies. I am a stud ent of FAST ( Foundation for Advancement of Science and Technology Pakistan). It will be very nice if you can mail me the latest png,mng file format specification. I shall be waiting for your response. Please mail me as soon as possible. Thanks for your inquiry regarding the PNG graphics file format. PNG documentation, applications and libraries for use in adding PNG to your applications are available by FTP from the following sites: Primary site (US): Archive: swrinde.nde.swri.edu:/pub/png Incoming: swrinde.nde.swri.edu:/pub/incoming/png Trouble: ksp@swri.edu Mirror site (Europe): PNG Home Page Mirror http://www.hensa.ac.uk/png/home/ or ftp://unix.hensa.ac.uk/png/home/ Public PNG files http://www.hensa.ac.uk/png/png/ or ftp://unix.hensa.ac.uk/png/png/ PNG-related web pages, including the PNG specification, are available at the following URL: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ Thanks! -T -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jul 28 17:07:17 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA08724 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:07:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA20650 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:52:53 -0500 Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [206.125.69.81]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id QAA20645 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:52:49 -0500 Received: from vader.boutell.com by boutell.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA10479; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:35:49 -0700 Received: from localhost (boutell@localhost) by vader.boutell.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09629; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:42:10 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:42:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Boutell To: PNG List cc: png-group@w3.org Subject: Re: Seeking information about png and other latest graphics file formats. In-Reply-To: <000701bdba6a$71778580$813ef0d0@saqib> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Khurram Sardar wrote: > Respectable members of the group, > I am a student and I want to know about all the sites of png. I also wish to know other newly introduced graphics file formats and internet references to them. Please help me in knowing about latest graphics file format technologies. I am a stud ent of FAST ( Foundation for Advancement of Science and Technology Pakistan). It will be very nice if you can mail me the latest png,mng file format specification. I shall be waiting for your response. Please mail me as soon as possible. Thanks for your inquiry regarding the PNG graphics file format. PNG documentation, applications and libraries for use in adding PNG to your applications are available by FTP from the following sites: Primary site (US): Archive: swrinde.nde.swri.edu:/pub/png Incoming: swrinde.nde.swri.edu:/pub/incoming/png Trouble: ksp@swri.edu Mirror site (Europe): PNG Home Page Mirror http://www.hensa.ac.uk/png/home/ or ftp://unix.hensa.ac.uk/png/home/ Public PNG files http://www.hensa.ac.uk/png/png/ or ftp://unix.hensa.ac.uk/png/png/ PNG-related web pages, including the PNG specification, are available at the following URL: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ Thanks! -T -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jul 28 22:02:44 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA16046 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:02:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id VAA24775 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:57:33 -0500 Received: from sophia.inria.fr (sophia.inria.fr [138.96.32.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id VAA24770 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:57:30 -0500 Received: from w3.org by sophia.inria.fr (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA22825; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 04:57:20 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: sophia.inria.fr: Host clill-pm.inria.fr [138.96.224.138] claimed to be w3.org Message-ID: <35B9BB07.A0147887@w3.org> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:01:27 +0200 From: Chris Lilley Organization: W3C X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List CC: newt@pobox.com Subject: Re: NeXT gamma info from NeXT/Apple References: <199807241904.MAA07870@scv4.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Mike Paquette wrote: > > Eric Broadbent asked me to pass this information along to the PNG list. > Having said that, we do take advantage of non-linear human perception when > possible. For example, our 8bit color palette uses a 6x8x5 color cube > with non-linear quantization. Of course, the dithering mixes must still > be calculated in a linear space. This gives us more levels towards the > darker ends of the spectrum where dithering artifacts tend to be more > noticeable. Great! > (The goal is to make the 8bit color dithering equally > objectionable in all areas of the color cube!) We also include a 16 level > linear gray ramp in the palette as well for rendering colors where r=g=b. Even better (addresses the problem of non-cubic palettes). Still leaves the problem of lack of near-neutral colors (where hue shifts are very noticeable) but that can't be fixed until the hardware designer decides to quit fiddling around to save an insignificant amount of memory and goes fora 16bit or 24bit display system. > (Under Windows, we can't quite hog the whole palette so we use a 6x7x5 > cube with 16 grays.) Note that these color palettes show once again that the mythical "browser safe" palette is anything but safe. Hopefully in a year or two the idea of quantising to a fixed assumed palette will seem as quaint as adaptively quantising to 50 colors (for Mosaic) does now. > We also have a 565 color implementation for OpenStep for Windows > (this is Windows 64K color mode). So here 5 6 5 refers to number of bits, not number of levels? > Again, since most Windows framebuffers > are not gamma corrected, we assume a non-linear quantization of the > framebuffer (i.e. more perceptually uniform) and gamma corrected > dithering. The results are virtually indistinguishable from 24bit color. Um. I would appreciate a pair of content-identical PNG images, one in 24bit and one in your "virtually indistinguishable" quantisation, to evaluate that claim. -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 29 01:28:02 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA29096 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:28:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id BAA27153 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:21:58 -0500 Received: from geocities.com (mail1.geocities.com [209.1.224.29]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id BAA27148 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:21:53 -0500 Received: from geocities.com (170-124-209.ipt.aol.com [152.170.124.209]) by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA01659 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35BEBE9A.223A5FE3@geocities.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:18:02 -0700 From: "Jon A. Cruz" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: PNG Advocacy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Hopefully this is the most appropriate place to bring this up. Personally I like PNG, but we need to make sure that the most people out there can use it. Currently, Geocities does not allow their members (including me) to even place PNG images on their system. I was thinking that it might be time to get PNG Now! going for the various homepage providers, but I don't want to be duplicating any effort. -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 29 08:19:10 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA00784 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:19:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id IAA00407 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:10:32 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id IAA00402 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:10:29 -0500 Received: (qmail 31965 invoked from network); 29 Jul 1998 13:10:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 29 Jul 1998 13:10:19 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA21988 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 06:10:18 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id GAA00256 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 06:13:24 -0700 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 06:13:24 -0700 Message-Id: <199807291313.GAA00256@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: iCCP (was Re: com.sixlegs.image.png v0.7 available) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List [redirected to png-list from png-announce] > Just for the record, sRGB is a registered chunk and iCCP is a proposed > chunk. Apps should not be writing iCCP chunks just yet, except for > testing purposes in files that won't be posted to the Net. Speaking of which, the two-week discussion period expired 5 days ago. Shall we get on with the voting period (assuming that's the next step)? I must admit, I'm fairly rusty on such things... Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 29 09:48:23 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA01617 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:48:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA01572 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:33:49 -0500 Received: from tiu.arl.mil (tiu.arl.mil [128.63.9.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id JAA01567 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:33:46 -0500 Received: from taylor.arl.mil by TIU.ARL.MIL id aa26168; 29 Jul 98 10:31 EDT Message-ID: <35BF3259.CEE9C878@alumni.rpi.edu> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:31:53 -0400 From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; U; IRIX 5.3 IP20) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: iCCP (was Re: com.sixlegs.image.png v0.7 available) References: <199807291313.GAA00256@bolt.sonic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg Roelofs wrote: > > [redirected to png-list from png-announce] > > > Just for the record, sRGB is a registered chunk and iCCP is a proposed > > chunk. Apps should not be writing iCCP chunks just yet, except for > > testing purposes in files that won't be posted to the Net. > > Speaking of which, the two-week discussion period expired 5 days ago. > Shall we get on with the voting period (assuming that's the next step)? > I must admit, I'm fairly rusty on such things... I have just posted a new version of the proposal (simply copied from Adam's latest PNG-1.1 proposal). The changes are only editorial, so I don't think this resets the discussion clock. The file is ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png-group/documents iccp-proposal-19980729.txt Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 29 16:55:58 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA02813 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:55:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA08970 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:51:28 -0500 Received: from www10.w3.org (www10.w3.org [18.23.0.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id QAA08965 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:51:25 -0500 Received: from us.itd.umich.edu (stimpy.us.itd.umich.edu [141.211.164.7]) by www10.w3.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA28399 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:51:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: www10.w3.org: Host stimpy.us.itd.umich.edu [141.211.164.7] claimed to be us.itd.umich.edu Received: from ren.us.itd.umich.edu by us.itd.umich.edu (8.8.6/2.2) with ESMTP id RAA11622; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ren.us.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/dumb-1.0) id RAA03876; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807292151.RAA03876@ren.us.itd.umich.edu> Subject: Multiple file extensions and IIP. To: png-group@w3.org Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Cc: altitude@iname.com From: Alex Tang X-Bitter-Quote: Ivanova - "All love is unrequited...All of it." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Hi there. I realize that this may be a shot in the dark but... I've recently been trying to gather information about FlashPix and the Internet Imaging Protocol (IIP). I'm trying to see if it would be possible to integrate IIP with PNG. Basically from what I understand, IIP allows the efficient transfer of high quality images over networks by only displaying what pixels are needed. I was wondering if anyone here knows of any other projects that involve similar goals, and/or if you think it would be feasible to use PNG as a back end file format for IIP. Some initial semi-tech questions I have are: * Is it possible to quickly read a "window" of data inside the picture? For example, if the picture is 300x300 pixels, but only the view looking at pixels 0x0 through 100x100 were needed, could that be quickly done with PNG without opening the whole file into memory and doing whatever clipping needed to be done? * What is the status of "Multiple image extensions" to PNG? Thanks! ...alex... -- Alex Tang | Carol: "Fucking H.M.O bastard pieces of shit!..." altitude@iname.com | Dr. Bettes: "It's ok, Actually, I think that's | their technical name." | --As Good As It Gets -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 29 17:35:23 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA03002 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:35:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA09348 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:27:22 -0500 Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [206.125.69.81]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA09342 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:27:18 -0500 Received: from vader.boutell.com by boutell.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA17022 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:28:02 -0700 Received: from localhost (boutell@localhost) by vader.boutell.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA26055 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:34:08 -0700 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:34:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Boutell To: PNG List Subject: Re: Multiple file extensions and IIP. In-Reply-To: <199807292151.RAA03876@ren.us.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Alex Tang wrote: > I was wondering if anyone here knows of any other projects that involve > similar goals, and/or if you think it would be feasible to use PNG as a > back end file format for IIP. In itself, that wouldn't be difficult. > Some initial semi-tech questions I have are: > > * Is it possible to quickly read a "window" of data inside the picture? > For example, if the picture is 300x300 pixels, but only the view > looking at pixels 0x0 through 100x100 were needed, could that be > quickly done with PNG without opening the whole file into memory and > doing whatever clipping needed to be done? You won't like this: This really isn't possible in any decently compressed lossless image format, such as PNG (or, indeed, GIF). The reason is this: compression algorithms like LZ77, or LZW, or the variant of LZ found in PNG all rely on what has gone before to determine a "compression dictionary" that governs the interpretation of the data to follow. That is, to simplify a bit, if something like this appears early in the file: CheeseSandwich Then, later in the file, the following might appear: 1 Where "1" referred to the position at which CheeseSandwich earlier appeared in the stream. It's not actually like that per se, but you can see that you can't skip ahead in the stream without losing your ability to interpret the meaning of the bytes of data you are looking at. > * What is the status of "Multiple image extensions" to PNG? PNG is not a multiple image format. MNG, however, is. See the attached information, which includes the location of an FTP site where you can dig up the MNG specification (in addition to PNG). -T Thanks for your inquiry regarding the PNG graphics file format. PNG documentation, applications and libraries for use in adding PNG to your applications are available by FTP from the following sites: Primary site (US): HOME PAGE: http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/ Archive: swrinde.nde.swri.edu:/pub/png Trouble: ksp@swri.edu Mirror site (Europe): PNG Home Page Mirror http://www.hensa.ac.uk/png/home/ or ftp://unix.hensa.ac.uk/png/home/ Public PNG files http://www.hensa.ac.uk/png/png/ or ftp://unix.hensa.ac.uk/png/png/ Thanks! -T -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jul 29 18:27:59 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA03256 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:27:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA10379 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:23:07 -0500 Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA10374 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:23:04 -0500 Received: from boi-itex02.boi.hp.com (exchange.boi.hp.com [15.98.137.131]) by palrel1.hp.com (8.8.6/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id QAA27091 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by exchange.boi.hp.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:26:30 -0600 Message-ID: <212BCC3857C6D111930A0800099B19B1ADE934@exchange.boi.hp.com> From: "Stokes, Michael" To: PNG List Subject: Re: Multiple file extensions and IIP. Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:26:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I asked some of the HP IIP folks and here's their response... "There are at least two ways one can use PNG and IIP together. First, one can tile a PNG image dynamically and use JPEG compression to deliver the image using IIP. This doesn't play to the strength of JPEG coding well, but it's technically straightforward. Second, one can define PNG tiles (64x64 images) as a new tile type using IIP, which supports the concept of new tile encoding methods (although PNG is not explicitly supported today.) One does this by selecting a coding tag identifier in the optional range of coding types. This would require a proprietary client implementation at this point, but there is ongoing discussion of adding an appropriate lossless compression method (like PNG) to IIP. This would be more bandwidth-efficient than the first method for typical PNG-coded graphic images, but it would still require completely decoding and recoding the image." and in response to Thomas Boutell's email... "Interesting... You actually COULD define an MNG image which would be highly amenable to IIP transport if you chose the frame/tiles appropriately." -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu