From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 1 20:58:49 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA11682 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 20:58:48 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id VAA11094 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 21:01:44 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id VAA11087 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 21:01:40 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id UAA14953 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 20:51:13 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id UAA17610 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 20:55:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 20:55:09 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601020255.UAA17610@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: it's that time of year... Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Gosh, we all missed the anniversary of CompuServe's infamous GIF announcement. 'Twere the 28th of December, if my PNG history can be trusted. ``The graphics format is dead; long live the graphics format!'' Or whatever. Btw, if anyone knows when the PNGf type was actually submitted to and/or approved by Apple, I'll fill in that date. Thanks. Also note that a number of new PNG-supporting apps showed up in December (or maybe November in some cases), including xli and HiJaak 95; I think I've got them all listed, but I'm still a bit behind on my e-mail and may have overlooked a few. HiJaak 95 was First-Looked in PC Magazine's 19 December issue (page 54), and PNG received a passing mention as "the replacement for the GIF format." It wasn't exactly high-profile coverage, but it's better than nothing. Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 2 10:36:12 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA17584 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:36:11 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA19682 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:40:50 -0600 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id KAA19675 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:40:47 -0600 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA10178; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:35:36 -0500 Date: 02 Jan 96 11:10:12 EST From: Owen Mortensen To: Cave Newt Cc: ngf Subject: Re: http://www.compuserve.com:80/prod_services/consumer/cis/join/win/index.html Message-ID: Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg, CompuServe has finally released version 2.0.1 of WinCIM. This version supports PNG. The page http://www.compuserve.com/join/win no longer exists. The replacement page is http://www.compuserve.com:80/prod_services/consumer/cis/join/win/index.html Owen ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 2 10:38:06 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA17599 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:38:06 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA19749 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:43:13 -0600 Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [204.137.132.17]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id KAA19744 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:43:08 -0600 Received: by boutell.com id AC23644 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu); Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:45:19 -0800 From: Thomas Boutell Message-Id: <199601021645.AC23644@boutell.com> Subject: Re: http://www.compuserve.com:80/prod_services/consumer/cis/join/win/index.html To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:45:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: from "Owen Mortensen" at Jan 2, 96 11:10:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > > Greg, > > CompuServe has finally released version 2.0.1 of WinCIM. > This version supports PNG. Congratulations. I should announce Mapedit 2.0's support for PNG to the list, come to think of it. -T (Yes, I have finally gotten 'round to writing something that views PNG myself...!) ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 2 10:40:53 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA17625 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:40:52 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA19789 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:45:59 -0600 Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [204.137.132.17]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id KAA19782 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:45:54 -0600 Received: by boutell.com id AA23669 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu); Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:48:06 -0800 From: Thomas Boutell Message-Id: <199601021648.AA23669@boutell.com> Subject: Mapedit 2.0 released; supports PNG To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 08:48:05 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Folks, Just thought I'd mention that I've finally updated my own graphics app, Mapedit, to support PNG. Version 2.0 can create server- and client-side imagemaps for the inline images in any web page, and supports GIF, JPEG and PNG. For Windows only right now. I found libpng to be straightforward to work with, especially right after working with libjpeg. And it occurs to me that the help doesn't adequately credit the libraries. Whoops. I'll fix that very shortly, folks. -T ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 3 07:12:55 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id HAA27944 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 07:12:55 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id HAA09220 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 07:17:04 -0600 Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id HAA09215 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 07:17:01 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial30.phoenix.net [199.3.234.65]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id HAA13122 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 07:11:45 -0600 Message-Id: <199601031311.HAA13122@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 07:11:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Benchmarks vs GIF Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Has anyone done benchmarks on GIF vs PNG decoding speed? Do good implementations have comparable speed? I'd like some figures, since some people are spreading the word that PNG is "klunky". I seem to recall that Oliver said that his PNG implementation is as fast as his own GIF implementation. Tim ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 3 10:01:29 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA00923 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:01:29 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA11505 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:06:31 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id KAA11500 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:06:25 -0600 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 16:00:02 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: PNG List Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601031600.aa07833@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List In reply to the message > From: Tim Wegner > Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 07:11:44 -0500 > Subject: Benchmarks vs GIF > Has anyone done benchmarks on GIF vs PNG decoding speed? Do > good implementations have comparable speed? I'd like some figures, > since some people are spreading the word that PNG is "klunky". I > seem to recall that Oliver said that his PNG implementation is as > fast as his own GIF implementation. > > Tim Here are some results with Mosaic 2.7b2/libpng-0.85/zlib-0.95. Timings were done on a 200MHz IRIS SGI Indigo2 running IRIX 5.3. PNG appears to be less klunky than GIF, even when the PNGs are interlaced: GIF PNG PNG-interlaced spiral6 1.926 0.643 1.130 rpfamily 0.132 0.071 0.128 einstein 0.413 0.163 0.322 dolphins 0.616 0.256 0.426 bede 0.306 0.143 0.388 Timings gotten with call to "gettimeofday" on entry and exit from gifread.c and readPNG.c . Guy's code is a good deal faster than mine, which uses system calls to gzip/gunzip temporary files. My png-ppm takes about 5.6 sec to process spiral6.png and 2.2 sec to process dolphins.png (2.7 and 6.8 interlaced) on the same machine. Timings gotten with "time png-ppm". ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 3 10:48:05 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA02220 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:48:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA12501 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:53:14 -0600 Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id KAA12494 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:53:10 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial90.phoenix.net [199.3.234.125]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA05114 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:47:53 -0600 Message-Id: <199601031647.KAA05114@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:36:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glennrp wrote: > Here are some results with Mosaic 2.7b2/libpng-0.85/zlib-0.95. Timings > were done on a 200MHz IRIS SGI Indigo2 running IRIX 5.3. PNG appears to be > less klunky than GIF, even when the PNGs are interlaced: Thanks. Any other results? This is a tough test, because there are some extremely efficient GIF implementations out there. programmers have had years to refine their code. FWIW, when I first got involved with GIF, I looked for assembler implementations, but nothing publically available was faster than some extremely mature and efficient C code by Steve Bennett, which we therefore used in Fractint. Having said that, I expect that the fastest GIF decoders for PCs use assembler. Oliver, what are your results? Tim ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 3 11:10:53 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA02541 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:10:53 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA13022 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:15:58 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id LAA13015 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:15:52 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA09611 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:08:55 -0500 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 3 Jan 96 16:00:02 GMT <9601031600.aa07833@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 12:08:54 -0500 Message-ID: <9609.820688934@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List PNG *compression* very likely is slower than GIF --- but decompression should be as fast or faster. (This is considering only the speed of the LZ vs. LZW algorithms, without allowing for filtering etc.) I recall finding that an early version of ppmtopng was depressingly slow --- slower than cjpeg let alone ppmtogif --- but have not repeated the experiment lately. Note that my test was dealing with full-color images, so it was doing the full try-all-the-filters heuristic. Compressing palette images would probably be noticeably quicker, and for comparisons with GIF, it's legitimate to consider only palette images... Keep in mind which part of the problem you're looking at when discussing implementation speed. regards, tom lane ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 3 11:18:16 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA02605 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:18:15 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA13145 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:23:27 -0600 Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id LAA13136 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:23:23 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial91.phoenix.net [199.3.234.126]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id LAA08953 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:18:06 -0600 Message-Id: <199601031718.LAA08953@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:18:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Tom said: > Keep in mind which part of the problem you're looking at when discussing > implementation speed. My concern is user perceptions, so I suggest we concentrate of decompression (viewing) speed, which is what most users are concerned about. It would be useful to compile more results like Glennrp's for other platforms. Tim ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 3 11:31:34 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA02731 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:31:33 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA13690 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:36:34 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id LAA13684 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:36:29 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA09668 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:29:31 -0500 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:18:04 -0500 <199601031718.LAA08953@phoenix.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 12:29:30 -0500 Message-ID: <9666.820690170@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Tim writes: > Tom said: >> Keep in mind which part of the problem you're looking at when discussing >> implementation speed. > My concern is user perceptions, so I suggest we concentrate of > decompression (viewing) speed, which is what most users are > concerned about. I agree that decompression speed is more critical than compression speed for many applications --- we wouldn't have designed PNG the way we did if we didn't believe that. But I think the complaints about PNG being slow are coming largely from people who notice how long it takes to save a PNG, and don't stop to measure whether loading PNG is faster. We can't answer the gripes effectively if we don't understand where they're coming from. So far I think there are several possible answers to PNG-is-slow complaints: 1. PNG is slower at compressing than decompressing, whereas GIF is roughly symmetrical. 2. On full-color images PNG may expend extra time on filtering (but this doesn't apply in a fair PNG-to-GIF comparison). 3. PNG implementations haven't yet had the benefit of years of optimization. 4. Some early releases of PNG code had bugs that slowed compression without affecting the validity of the resulting file. If we really want to answer the critics effectively, we need to understand the relative importance of all these effects, not just make some random measurements. regards, tom lane ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 3 12:52:01 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA04146 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:52:01 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id MAA15652 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:57:01 -0600 Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id MAA15640 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:56:56 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial40.phoenix.net [199.3.234.75]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA24983 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:51:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199601031851.MAA24983@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:51:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > If we really want to answer the critics effectively, we need to understand > the relative importance of all these effects, not just make some random > measurements. I am not sure you and I are quite on the same wavelength. The critics I am answering have only vague impressions probably gained from limited experience with early apps. These critics haven't seriously looked at PNG. My purpose is two-fold: 1. To counter vague impressions with some hard data, of which I think decoding time is a reasonable parameter to measure, at least for starters. 2. I'm also interested in just finding out comprehensively what the state of our implementations are. If PNG compression is slower we should just say so. Sounds like you are interested in a more thorough analysis of PNG speed issues, which is fine by me. I did a quick check with QPNG and VPIC viewing times and found they were about the same. VPIC is a relatively fast DOS-based viewer. Tim ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 3 13:34:29 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA04775 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 13:34:26 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA17379 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 13:39:38 -0600 Received: from mail.Clark.Net (mail.clark.net [168.143.0.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA17373 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 13:39:34 -0600 Received: from glenc.clark.net (glenc.clark.net [168.143.4.56]) by mail.Clark.Net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA10832 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:34:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:34:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199601031934.OAA10832@mail.Clark.Net> X-Sender: glenc@clark.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: PNG List From: glenc@clark.net (Glen Chapman) Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF X-Mailer: Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >Tom said: > >My concern is user perceptions, so I suggest we concentrate of >decompression (viewing) speed, which is what most users are >concerned about. > We have converted three of our CD-ROM journal products to use PNG rather than GIF. When I plugged in the PNG decoder originally I did some benchmarks which indicated that the PNG's were about 20% faster. The perception of our clients is that PNG is faster displaying or about the same. No complaints that it was slower. One caveat is that GIF2PNG occasionally applies filtering when converting gray scale and B&W images. These may be slower to display than GIF. If I ever get caught up, I'll plug in my timers and take a look. glen ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 3 14:17:05 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA05651 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:17:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA19444 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:21:58 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id OAA19436 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:21:50 -0600 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 20:10:29 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: PNG List Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601032010.aa18968@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I wrote > > Here are some results with Mosaic 2.7b2/libpng-0.85/zlib-0.95. Timings > were done on a 200MHz IRIS SGI Indigo2 running IRIX 5.3. PNG appears to be > less klunky than GIF, even when the PNGs are interlaced: > > GIF PNG PNG-interlaced > spiral6 1.926 0.643 1.130 > rpfamily 0.132 0.071 0.128 > einstein 0.413 0.163 0.322 > dolphins 0.616 0.256 0.426 > bede 0.306 0.143 0.388 > > Timings gotten with call to "gettimeofday" on entry and exit from > gifread.c and readPNG.c . > Just to be totally fair... I had a look at the Mosaic makefiles. Lo and behold, libpng, libjpeg-6, and zlib are compiled with "cc -O" but gifread.c is compiled with "cc -g". To level the playing field, I manually recompiled gifread.c with "cc -O" and got better results (and a faster Mosaic). It doesn't change the conclusions much except that noninterlaced GIF is sometimes faster than interlaced PNG with this random selection of images: GIF PNG PNG-interlaced spiral6 1.440 0.643 1.130 rpfamily 0.061 0.071 0.128 einstein 0.295 0.163 0.322 dolphins 0.456 0.256 0.426 bede 0.186 0.143 0.388 ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 3 14:48:54 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA06128 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:48:53 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA20307 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:54:04 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA20299 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:53:58 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 3 Jan 1996 20:47:55 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <6350.9601032047@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 20:47:53 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9601032010.aa18968@TBD2.ARL.MIL> from "Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB" at Jan 3, 96 08:10:29 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > To level the playing field, I manually recompiled > gifread.c with "cc -O" and got better results (and a faster Mosaic). It > doesn't change the conclusions much except that noninterlaced GIF is > sometimes faster than interlaced PNG with this random selection of images Could you post results with those same images as interlaced GIF 89? We should really be comparing non-interlaced GIF with non-interlaced PNG, and interlaced GIF with interlaced PNG. (Sorry to be a pedant). -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 3 15:17:32 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA06723 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:17:31 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA21114 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:22:35 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id PAA21106 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:22:30 -0600 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 21:16:43 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: PNG List Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601032116.aa24235@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > > Could you post results with those same images as interlaced GIF 89? We > should really be comparing non-interlaced GIF with non-interlaced PNG, > and interlaced GIF with interlaced PNG. (Sorry to be a pedant). > Sorry, but I do not have (nor do I seek) the capability of making interlaced GIFs. If you have an interlaced GIF or two, I'd be happy to make them into interlaced PNGs and then run a test. Looking at the code in gifread.c, I'd expect the decoding time for interlaced GIFs to be almost identical to that for noninterlaced GIFs. ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 3 22:57:34 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA10647 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 22:57:33 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id XAA28481 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 23:02:29 -0600 Received: from mailx.best.com (mailx.best.com [204.156.128.56]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id XAA28475 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 23:02:24 -0600 Received: from shellx.best.com (shellx.best.com [206.86.0.11]) by mailx.best.com (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/8.6.5) with ESMTP id EAA28109 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 04:59:05 GMT Received: from cpic (photodex.vip.best.com [205.149.166.237]) by shellx.best.com (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/8.6.5) with SMTP id UAA06511 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 20:57:05 -0800 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 20:57:05 -0800 Message-Id: <199601040457.UAA06511@shellx.best.com> X-Sender: photodex@best.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: PNG List From: pschmidt@photodex.com (Paul Schmidt) Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >Has anyone done benchmarks on GIF vs PNG decoding speed? Do >good implementations have comparable speed? I'd like some figures, >since some people are spreading the word that PNG is "klunky". I >seem to recall that Oliver said that his PNG implementation is as >fast as his own GIF implementation. > >Tim Tim, I remember talk that a deflate decoder should be faster than an LZW decoder. I can't speak for our code because we haven't optimized the deflate code yet, so our PNG decoder is still "klunky". I think the reaction people are getting is primarily because everyone is still using unoptimized code for their implementations, as PNG hasn't "stuck" yet. It's moving forward, though. Best Regards, Paul Schmidt ---------------------------------------------------------- Photodex Corporation Service GO/Keyword E-Mail 1781 Barcelona Street AOL: Photodex Photodex Livermore, CA 94550 CIS: Photodex 74774,3635 (510)449-9079 Voice (510)449-3519 Fax i'net: pschmidt@photodex.com "I play with dots... WWW: http://www.photodex.com ...lots of dots." FTP: ftp.photodex.com ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 4 03:09:29 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id DAA12431 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 03:09:28 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id DAA01347 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 03:14:35 -0600 Received: from alpha.ntu.ac.sg (alpha.ntu.ac.sg [155.69.1.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id DAA01337 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 03:14:01 -0600 Received: from ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg by ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg (PMDF V5.0-4 #7636) id <01HZMBNK9MXC985AP1@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg> for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Thu, 04 Jan 1996 17:08:32 +0800 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 17:08:31 +0800 From: "WILLEM VAN SCHAIK (INTERNET: GWILLEM@NTUVAX.NTU.AC.SG)" Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Message-id: <01HZMBNKASDE985AP1@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg> Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore X-VMS-To: IN%"png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu" X-VMS-Cc: GWILLEM MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Hi, I think there is another very plausable reason why people get the IMPRESSION that PNG is slower then GIF. With PNG, full-color and higher bit-depth pictures are suddenly possible. Even some- times without knowing, people start using these new "features". So it's a comparable statement to "ABC-app version 7 is so much slower then the old [most often said with a sentimental intona- tion] version 2". Yes, but the new version is doing 10 times more then the old one. And that costs CPU power. Which luckily gets cheaper with the day. Conclusion: when users say they THINK something is slower, they are often comparing "apples with pears". Oh, and BTW, everybody still a Happy 1996 !!!! Willem W i l l e m v a n S c h a i k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gintic - Singapore gwillem@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 4 11:48:04 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA18516 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 11:48:03 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA07885 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 11:52:30 -0600 Received: from mercury.ukc.ac.uk (mercury.ukc.ac.uk [129.12.21.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id LAA07880 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 11:52:17 -0600 Received: from mint.ukc.ac.uk by mercury.ukc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:46:34 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.ukc.ac.uk) by mint.ukc.ac.uk (4.1/UKC-2.12) id AA08146; Thu, 4 Jan 96 17:46:31 GMT To: PNG List , ksp@maxwell.nde.swri.edu (Keith S. Pickens), schalnat@group42.com Subject: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 17:46:31 +0000 Message-Id: <8145.820777591@mint.ukc.ac.uk> From: Dave Beckett Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I have just uploaded to /incoming/png on swrinde.nde.swri.edu a small program called pngmeta which outputs the meta data (text strings) inside PNG images. This is a program that WWW indexers / resource discovery systems such as Lycos, harvest, ... can use to extract meta data and index images. At WWW4, a representative of Lycos said that they would do this. e.g mint% pngmeta goldhill.png pngmeta: PNG meta data for goldhill.png: Title: GOLDHILL: Photo of hill in small European town. Copyright: Unknown It avoids the processing of IDAT chunks using a custom piece of code and thus is much faster than PNG displayers. Guy: this code can be added to libpng if you want. Dave ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 4 13:26:17 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA19754 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:26:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA09130 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:31:19 -0600 Received: from maxwell.nde.swri.edu (maxwell.nde.swri.edu [129.162.171.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA09125 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:31:15 -0600 Received: (from ksp@localhost) by maxwell.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id NAA14783; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:25:48 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601041925.NAA14783@maxwell.nde.swri.edu> From: ksp@maxwell.nde.swri.edu (Keith S. Pickens) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:25:48 -0600 In-Reply-To: Dave Beckett "Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data" (Jan 4, 5:46pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Dave Beckett , PNG List , schalnat@group42.com Subject: Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Moved into: /pub/png/applications -keith ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 4 13:34:17 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA20015 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:34:15 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA09244 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:39:33 -0600 Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA09239 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:39:30 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial57.phoenix.net [199.3.234.92]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA13064 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:34:06 -0600 Message-Id: <199601041934.NAA13064@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:34:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Chris, how about a report on the W3C conference? Or did I miss something? How did your talk go? How would you characterize interest in PNG? Tim ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 4 13:44:39 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA20222 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:44:39 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA09453 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:49:47 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA09447 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:49:41 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id NAA09024 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:38:59 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id NAA02479 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:43:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:43:52 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601041943.NAA02479@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Keith wrote: > Moved into: /pub/png/applications I've been wondering: what exactly is the distinction between that directory and /pub/png-group/bin? The former contains the Ulead PNG plug-in for Aldus (Adobe) PhotoStyler, but the latter (bin/mswin) contains the Adobe PhotoShop version of the same thing. As far as I can tell, they're identical in concept and basic function; the only difference is the application in question and who wrote them (both are third parties, however). Likewise, some PNG-list members have their own "products" in png/applications (e.g., PingPong, QPNG, 1stguide(?)); others are relegated to png-group/bin (e.g., Png2Spr). Is there rhyme or reason here? (If you do decide to move things around, please tell me first so I can fix all the broken links on the PNG pages...) Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 4 14:27:23 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA20932 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:27:22 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA10549 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:32:25 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA10544 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:32:19 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 4 Jan 1996 20:26:28 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <13234.9601042026@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 20:26:26 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199601041943.NAA02479@ellis.uchicago.edu> from "Cave Newt" at Jan 4, 96 01:43:52 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg said: > Keith wrote: > > > Moved into: /pub/png/applications > > I've been wondering: what exactly is the distinction between > that directory and /pub/png-group/bin? I thought that the distinction was that png-group stuff was private. But now I'm not so sure; Dave's pngmeta program, for example, will not work out of the box with the publically available 0.81 libpng (it requires void png_skip_till_end(png_struct *png_ptr, png_info *info) instead of void png_skip_till_end(png_structp png_ptr, png_infop info) and needs #define png_memcmp memcmp, then it seems to work) but 0.85 libpng is in png-group. So there is a publically available application that requires a private library to work ... I had updated the ftp archive on ftp.mcc to reflect the structural changes that Keith made (splitting code into src and applications) but had not been mirroring the png-group stuff. Should I be? Or should we get this straight first? -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 4 14:28:06 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA20945 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:28:05 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA10566 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:33:23 -0600 Received: from maxwell.nde.swri.edu (maxwell.nde.swri.edu [129.162.171.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA10561 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:33:18 -0600 Received: (from ksp@localhost) by maxwell.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id OAA14918 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:27:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601042027.OAA14918@maxwell.nde.swri.edu> From: ksp@maxwell.nde.swri.edu (Keith S. Pickens) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:27:50 -0600 In-Reply-To: Cave Newt "Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data" (Jan 4, 1:43pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: PNG List Subject: Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On Jan 4, 1:43pm, Cave Newt wrote: } Subject: Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data } Keith wrote: } } > Moved into: /pub/png/applications } } I've been wondering: what exactly is the distinction between } that directory and /pub/png-group/bin? OK, here is the idea: /pub/png vs. /pub/png-group /pub/png gets mirrored by uunet and we need to keep it small. This means a minimal number of images and no executables. It also means only released copies of docs and libs. /pub/png-group is not mirrored by uunet and can get much bigger than /pub/png. This means working copies of docs and libs, mailing list archives, executables, and more images. applications vs. bin If it comes with source it goes into `applications' and if it is an executable it goes into `bin'. I may not always get this correct so if you think something is in the wrong place please point it out. [Some things may be out of place due to `history'.] Better ideas on layout are welcome. -keith ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 4 17:02:31 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA23947 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:02:30 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA13775 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:07:25 -0600 Received: from maxwell.nde.swri.edu (maxwell.nde.swri.edu [129.162.171.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA13770 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:07:19 -0600 Received: (from ksp@localhost) by maxwell.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id RAA15301 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:01:57 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601042301.RAA15301@maxwell.nde.swri.edu> From: ksp@maxwell.nde.swri.edu (Keith S. Pickens) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:01:57 -0600 In-Reply-To: lilley "Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data" (Jan 4, 8:26pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: PNG List Subject: Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On Jan 4, 8:26pm, lilley wrote: } Subject: Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data } Greg said: } } > Keith wrote: } > } > > Moved into: /pub/png/applications } > } > I've been wondering: what exactly is the distinction between } > that directory and /pub/png-group/bin? } } I thought that the distinction was that png-group stuff was private. } But now I'm not so sure; Dave's pngmeta program, for example, will not } work out of the box with the publically available 0.81 libpng (it } requires void png_skip_till_end(png_struct *png_ptr, png_info *info) } instead of void png_skip_till_end(png_structp png_ptr, png_infop info) } and needs #define png_memcmp memcmp, then it seems to work) but } 0.85 libpng is in png-group. So there is a publically available } application that requires a private library to work ... } Sounds like I put it in the wrong tree. It is a big help if whoever uploads something can give me a pointer on which dir you think your something goes in. So ... Moved into: /pub/png-group/applications -keith ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 4 17:25:32 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA24540 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:25:32 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA14036 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:30:48 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA14031 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:30:40 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:25:04 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <14620.9601042325@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:25:03 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199601042301.RAA15301@maxwell.nde.swri.edu> from "Keith S. Pickens" at Jan 4, 96 05:01:57 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Keith said: > I wrote: > } Dave's pngmeta program, for example, will not > } work out of the box with the publically available 0.81 libpng (it > } requires void png_skip_till_end(png_struct *png_ptr, png_info *info) > } instead of void png_skip_till_end(png_structp png_ptr, png_infop info) > } and needs #define png_memcmp memcmp, then it seems to work) but > } 0.85 libpng is in png-group. So there is a publically available > } application that requires a private library to work ... > Sounds like I put it in the wrong tree. > So ... Moved into: /pub/png-group/applications Dave, if the changes I noted really are the only ones needed to get it to work with 0.81, could you post a pngmeta-0.9 to go into pub/png/applications so that people can pick it up and use it right now? I want to alert the guy who spoke to us about a Harvest gatherer so he can grab your code and start using it. -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 4 18:04:09 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA25592 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 18:04:08 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA14697 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 18:09:24 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA14690 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 18:09:09 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 00:03:40 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <14802.9601050003@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Report from WWW4 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 00:03:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chris.lilley@mcc.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <199601041934.NAA13064@phoenix.net> from "Tim Wegner" at Jan 4, 96 01:34:04 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Tim Wegner asked: > Chris, how about a report on the W3C conference? Or did I miss > something? How did your talk go? How would you characterize interest > in PNG? Oh, right. Sorry, my supply of round tuits had got a bit low ;-) Thanks to Dave Beckett for taking notes on Developers Day, and to Glenn for thoughtfully saving an email message I sent to Glenn and Tom at the conference. So .. Slightly warm news from the WWW4 conference. =========================================== Before the conference --------------------- Last minute panic as the online version of my paper seems to have the wrong diagrams and the PNG files that some of them link to are being served up as application/octetstream rather than image/png ... I talk the W3C Webmaster through adding the new MIME type to their server. Another panic - I had asked the conference organisers for a 24 bit workstation to demonstrate PNG on. Shock, horror, it appears that Arena dumps core and dies if asked to display a PNG inline on a 24 bit screen. However, true alpha support is only implemented in 24 bit mode, not in 8 bit mode. Cue quick debug session with Dave Beckett running a hacked version of Arena in Kent, displaying remotely over the network onto an SGI Indigo2 at Manchester. Me running back and forth to the phone "no, now its all shifted to the left" "ok, try that" "no, still wrong". Looks like we will have to use an 8bit visual. Oh well. Tutorial Day (Monday) --------------------- PNG did not get mentioned, that I heard. Sorry about that. Everyone was talking about Java, and laughing at Livescript/Javascript. Day One (Tuesday) ----------------- In his plenary address toward the end of day one, Tim Berners-Lee mentioned PNG in the context of open systems as opposed to closed, proprietary systems. He just casually dropped it into the talk, didn't make a big deal over it, but it was mentioned. In the late evening I amused myself by installing PNG viewers on some of the machines that were available for Webing and emailing. I pulled over a helper app for the Mac (GraphicConverter) which seems to display PNG Suite well. However I did not find a decent PNG helper app for MS-Windoze (really!!). Day Two (Wednesday) ------------------- My paper (at 8:30 am!!) was one of six crammed into 90 minutes. Not enough time to go into any sort of detail. By day two I was kind of bored with people just reading out their papers anyway - we all had a big fat bound volume of the proceedings. So as the session was entitled: "Media: Short Summary Presentations on New Content Types" I had a quick word with the session chair and we agreed that I would present essentially just the conclusions from my paper, concentrating on the PNG format. So to the slight consternation of some of those present, I announced that there were a whole bunch of requirements for presenting quality graphics on the Web and that people could read the details in the proceedings or online if they were interested. I then said, there is one graphics format that meets quite a few of my quality criteria. PNG, thats a new Media type, so I am going to give you an overview. Followed by 11 minutes of the fastest presentation ever. Thought I had 15, but suddenly got a "one minute more" message from the chair. Covered why we need a new graphics format (what's wrong with GIF, apart from the obvious), streamability, error detection, auto gamma correction, colour information, metadata. Stressed how long the PNG format had been stable (I held up a copy of draft 2 to show how small it was). I showd slides of the interlacing scheme in dot and replicate modes (thanks for the example images, Glenn). I kept things light and anecdotal and I think it went OK. There were around 250 people in that session, perhaps more. Afterwards in the break, several people came up and asked me about PNG - would it replace GIF, was it slower than GIF, was it better than JPEG, all those sorts of questions. Some people were asking, can I use it now, so I was telling them there were viewers and conversion tools for all major and most minor platforms. Several people seemed to consider "has PNG arrived yet" to be synonymous with "is there a Photoshop plugin". I told them there was one for MS Windoze but not yet for the Mac. Anyone have more news on that score? In a later session there was an invited presentation by Chris Dobbs of Kodak. He did a talk on the future of the Web with particular reference to high quality images. Primarily focussing on PhotoCD as you would expect, he referred to PNG several times and also to my paper (which covers PNG). His session was well attended, perhaps 300 or 350 people. Good exposure (if you pardon the pun). He had a demo where an inline image was "zoomed" with a CGI script sending back appropriate on the fly cropped images from the next resolution up in the imagepack. This could of course be done with a bunch of PNG images at various resolutions, too - anyone want to give it a whirl? Early that evening, Dave Beckett and I pulled a newly-hacked Sun binary of Arena over from the UK - Dave had done a last minute hack to Arena the day before the conference - so we could demonstrate a Web browser with inline PNG, auto gamma correction, tRNS and alpha support - alpha support was not enabled in Arena for 8 bit displays, before. It works now. Greg, could you update the Arena entry on the PNG Web page, please? We still could not find a PNG viewer for MS-Windoze that would take a file from the command line and display it. Surely there must be one? We also got some images - the gamma test suite, goldhill, hell - and put them on a (more) local Web server. Thanks to Jim Gettys of W3C for help there. Incidentally there seems to be a problem with spurious transparent hilights in the hell image - anyone else notice that? Later there was a Birds of a Feather session on free software: Dave Beckett and I went along and got PNG mentioned a couple of times but mostly folk were doing the usual free software religious war stuff and were too caught up to notice. Developers Day (Thursday) ------------------------- In email the previous night, Glenn had said (about the W3C version of the PNG spec): > Wasn't my idea to include an tag either. Wish they > had at least used a JPEG if they didn't want to use a PNG. I brought that up with Tim BL at lunch. They need GIF because of the transparency, can't use JPEG for that. With my best straight face on I asked if they could use content negotiation and the multi feature of the CERN server to provide PNG to those browsers that can handle it and GIF to those that can't. They will look into this. I was also talking about W3C strategy with Dan Comnnolly (of W3C) and they intend to use the W3C branding to give developers that warm fuzzy feeling that this is a stable standard, or something. There were a lot less people at the conference on Developers Day.I gave a 40 minute talk on PNG to an audience of perhaps 100, 150 developers. I began with the history of PNG - starting 1984: Unisys obtains patent 4,558,302 for LZW compression and sits on it for ten years and going through to 26 November 1995 with the W3C Technical Report on PNG. I talked about how it was streamable for the convenience of modern browsers like Netscape (heh!) with early detection of corruption and no offsets or seeking required. I also pointed out the desirability of asymetric compression/decompression given that the same image gets decompressed millions of times on the Web. This seemed to sink in. Everyone had of course seen pictures that were too light or too dark so gamma coirrection was easy to sell. We demonstrated it too. I showed Glenn's pictures of progressive display with fade in or prodressive refinement display options and pointed out that a recognisable image was obtained after only 6% of the data had been transmitted. I also dropped in the illustrative factoid that the first four passes were displayed in the same time as one pass of interlaced GIF89. Transparency was introduced by asking hands up how many people have seen white haloes round graphics on the Web - which of course most had - and then ponting out that PNG got around that problem. Again, that seemed to be understood as a clear advantage. I was trying to show what real world problems PNG solves. People always ask about compression so with the proviso these were just some illustrative results I told them that I find PNG gives around 77% of the size of GIF for palette images and around 73% of the size of LZW compressed TIFF. Then I reminded them that LZW TIFF (which is the only decent compression TIFF has) is subject to the same patent problems. PNG gave 18% of the file size of uncompressed GIFs in one set of tests, I told them. Pre-filtering was briefly covered, more to show that the compression is clever and well thought out. This wasn't the audience to go into detail about compression with (just as well, for me ;-) I told them about the metadata features - storing keyword,text pairs and how we could compress long boring disclaimers with the same compression library. I also pointed out that PNG uses ISO Latin 1 same as HTML does, what a coincidence and by the way a clever browser could extract that data and display it in a definition list (DL) ... that seemed to set a few folks minds working. I said about libpng and how developers could just pick it up and use it, also that it was free for any use including commercial, which seemed to be news to many. I guess they thought there was hard coding work ahead if they wanted to support PNG. I also told them the late breaking news about the push model version, coming soon, which got some more folks interested. I tried to give the impression the PNG group had designed a neat format specially for inline use on the Web, given them a library that did all the work, tailored to the way a modern multi-threaded browser operates ... the usual "this is not rocket sciece" pitch. It was real useful having Dave there to back me up, answer the hard questions and, well, be living proof that someone had implemented PNG support in a browser. Lastly I talked about robustness, extensibility and quality with a storming good quote from Ken Fox (which had been posted to this group before the conference) and concluded that this was a stable, quality specification that was proven in use and getting very popular. I ran out of time to show about the chrm stuff (I had several slides on that) and how useful it is and we did not get all the images displayed that we wanted to. We did show a Mac following a link from my paper to a PNG image and displaying it in a helper application, which not only showed it could be done but also underlined the multi-platform nature and gave them a pointer to my paper to check out some more details. Dave said about the talk: > It went pretty well but I wish I could have shown the incremental > display and the alpha channel working properly. The colour problem > that Arena has have didn't seem to cause a problem, luckily. We had been allocated a break-out room for a further 45 minutes if developers wanted to have more in-depth talks. Because of folks asking questions it took 20 minutes to get there though, which was a good sign I suppose. Dave took notes on the questions: > Q: Does Netscape support inline PNG This seemed to be a major yardstick for many people. > > A: (you) Said they were told in Jan but were waiting for the libpng > software to support incremental display. You also mentioned the > browsers that are keen to support it: Spyglass and I reminded you > that it was already supported in Mosaic. > > Q: Is there a Java applet? > > A: (you) No (me) I will write one if no-one else does. The folks from Spyglass said they would implement inline PNG as soon as there was a working thread-safe push-model library they could use. I tried to give the impression that Netscape were just waiting for that library, too. More questions: >* SGI > We had a 'Network Administrator'(?) who said that they were very > interested in using the PNG standard. I gave you his business > card, can you please copy me his details? Christopher K Reavis, chrisr@corp.sgi.com Silicon Graphics currently use their own SGI RGB format which uses simple run length encoding so the files are huge. Their format also supports alpha. Perhaps they want to put PNG support in Showcase or something. >* Lycos > Will support PNG images and index on any text (keywords) inside the > images. The Lycos folk were very interested in extracting the textual information from PNG and indexing it. Most robots simply ignore anything that is an image. In the talk I gave an example of searching for images based on their description rather than trying to guess their filenames .. that seems to have struck a chord. Someone who manages one of the Harvest caches was also interested, so Dave's pngmeta filter will be right handy. I have his email address (he is actually right here in Manchester). At the PNG breakout, there were around 8 people but we don't know all their names apart from those who gave business cards. > 1 Lycos > (above) > > 2 & 3 : Canada Center for Remote Sensing > Interested in the colour support and wanted that colour tutorial > that you wrote at MCC. Thanks. I have their url but no email address. Perhaps their web site has it. > There was a general question and answer session in which we covered > several issues. You gave a general discussion of how the colour was > stored (CCRS people) and explained some of the issues related to > gamma correction. > There were questions on: > * Image compression > What type, how good is it, comparisons with TIFF I think I gave the idea PNG was better than both GIF and TIFF in that regard, and I also mentioned it was better than JPEG on some images (ie those for which JPEG is an unsuitable choice. People often use JPEG because it is the only 24 bit format they are aware of). > * Conversion > We said there was a gif2png program but if you had an image format > such as TIFF which has alpha data (?), tifftoppm file | pnmtopng > file.png > will loose that data. A tiff2png program would be a good idea. Yes, it would. I just found out that Utah RLE format has an alpha channel and that the Rayshade ratytracing package outputs coverage information in there. If anyone has tools to take an RGB png plus a Greyscale PNG (containing the extracted alpha) and generate an RGBA PNG, please let me know as I have a nice image that would be a good example of that. It also has a whole bunch of meta information as keyword-value pairs ina separate text file. Anyone help me with that? > * Optimisation of image storing > You discussed about compression and how more time was spent > processing the compressing of the PNG images, choosing the filter > type, doing a better 'gzip'. This brought up the idea of a png > optimiser program (png2png?) pngopt? Yes, something that retains all the other chunks but actually tries compressing with each filter with gzip -9 on each scan line and writes out a new, smaller png that is otherwise identical. Checking for less than 256 distinct colours and writing a palette image. Some greyscale PNGs with few greys can be smaller as palette images, too. > I discussed some of the ongoing developments of PNG, the non-linear > axis, false colour images etc. but stressed these were optional and > could be picked up by those people who needed them. Dave and I talked to Tim BL about Compuserve and Publicity > I mentioned that they were getting worried that the image format > was out of their control, being a W3C standard. Considering the > form of the publicity that they have given, announcing it as a > "proprietary" standard that they have developed, I suggested that > the W3C should shout about this a bit more. Tim said that we > should draft a Press Release about PNG that W3C can use. Any takers? We also talked about PNG + Arena > I will continue working on that and add incremental display as an > example of how it works (and to test out the code). After the conference -------------------- I have been mailed by the conference organisers and they are keen to mount online versions of my talk on their Web server. So I am converting the talk to HTML and adding some explanations to make it a useful stand-alone discussion of PNG. Don't hold your breath though, as I am out of the office quite a bit next week. I note that the W3C main page, which used to have a link saying "Graphics" now has a link saying "Graphics, including PNG". Anyway things seem to be going well so far on the PNG front and there seems to be a fair bit of interest generated. We clearly need to: # get the push model library stable and promote it's use # get Netscape to commit to supporting inline PNG, and # get a good Photoshop export option that handles alpha information and writes valid gamma and chromaticity data (which Photoshop uses internally anyway) on Mac and PC platforms Mac is more important. -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 4 19:37:55 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA26222 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 19:37:55 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id TAA16038 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 19:42:57 -0600 Received: from www.one.net (www.one.net [206.112.192.120]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id TAA16033 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 19:42:52 -0600 Received: from [206.112.193.123] (port-4-23.access.one.net [206.112.193.123]) by www.one.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA17977 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 20:32:35 -0500 Message-Id: <199601050132.UAA17977@www.one.net> To: "png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 96 20:39:37 -0500 From: GuyS X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List -- [ From: GuyS * EMC.Ver #2.5.03 ] -- > We clearly need to: > > # get the push model library stable and promote it's use > > # get Netscape to commit to supporting inline PNG, and I've only had a few bug reports for libpng 0.85. I'll work on it over the weekend to get 0.86 out, so we can put it on the public sites and push it. For 0.9, I'll have to finish the dithering (for X-Mosaic) and perhaps add a cHRM transformation, and look at the documentation (I've had two people send me changes, but I haven't had time to go through them. I'll get there). Netscape asked me to write a plug-in for inline PNG files. I'll be investigating that this weekend also. Anyone here write a plug-in yet? We may need to push a little harder to get them to integrate it directly into their code. We'll see. Finally, I seemed to have dropped a few days of email around Dec 30 - Jan 2. If anyone sent me something those days, and it bounced, could you please send it again? Thanks. -Guy ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 4 19:49:07 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA26389 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 19:49:07 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id TAA16232 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 19:54:25 -0600 Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [204.137.132.17]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id TAA16225 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 19:54:19 -0600 Received: by boutell.com id AA04524 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu); Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:55:26 -0800 From: Thomas Boutell Message-Id: <199601050155.AA04524@boutell.com> Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:55:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199601050132.UAA17977@www.one.net> from "GuyS" at Jan 4, 96 08:39:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Netscape asked me to write a plug-in for inline PNG files. > I'll be investigating that this weekend also. Anyone here > write a plug-in yet? We may need to push a little harder > to get them to integrate it directly into their code. We'll > see. Aren't these platform-specific? I thought about this too, but wouldn't this just mean PNG wouldn't happen in the X version? (I don't think they have a real plug-in API for X.) Or were they hoping you would do that and give them the source code? The Windows plug-in API is certainly capable of handling an inline image viewer, even a progressively rendering one, although I'm not sure what it does about interlacing. -T ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 4 22:03:32 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA27242 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:03:32 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id WAA17782 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:08:47 -0600 Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id WAA17775 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:08:41 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial91.phoenix.net [199.3.234.126]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id WAA26322 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:03:12 -0600 Message-Id: <199601050403.WAA26322@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:03:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Guy said: > Netscape asked me to write a plug-in for inline PNG files. > I'll be investigating that this weekend also. Anyone here > write a plug-in yet? We may need to push a little harder > to get them to integrate it directly into their code. We'll > see. I'm all for a plugin, but as you say we'll be much better off if the Netscape PNG support is instrinsic. You can't count on pleple having the plugin unless Netscape distributes it. Tim ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 4 23:42:52 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA28060 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:42:51 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id XAA18780 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:48:04 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id XAA18775 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:48:00 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id XAA03770 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:37:16 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id XAA06081 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:42:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:42:01 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601050542.XAA06081@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: swrinde layout ideas Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Keith, > /pub/png gets mirrored by uunet and we need to keep it small. Was this their idea? As far as I know, they've never said anything about our Info-ZIP archive; we've got binaries for a dozen operating systems there, and while the archive's not *huge*, it's moderately big. (Of course, we don't have any images there...) As far as I can tell from a cursory examination of the site, the binaries in /pub/png-group don't amount to much at all. I'd vote for sticking them in the mirrored section. > /pub/png-group is not mirrored by uunet and can get much bigger > than /pub/png. This means working copies of docs and libs, mailing > list archives, executables, and more images. That's fine, but I think a distinction must be made between non-mirrored public stuff and non-mirrored internal stuff. How about moving the public stuff to a third directory, say /pub/png2 ? "png-group" sounds semi-private/internal anyway. I'd also suggest making OS subdirectories under applications, just like you have under bin; it's not obvious that PingPong is for NeXTStep or that 1stGuide is for Atari (unless you check the web pages or grab all of the readme files). Note that I've currently got tons of links into /pub/png-group; the only reason libpng 0.85 isn't linked is because Guy requested it. > If it comes with source it goes into `applications' and if it is > an executable it goes into `bin'. A README or INDEX file in the parent directory, explaining what types of files can be found in each directory, would be a big help. I think README files automatically get prepended to the HTML listing of an ftp directory, at least with the CERN server. > I may not always get this correct so if you think something is in > the wrong place please point it out. [Some things may be out of > place due to `history'.] Given this scheme, the Ulead uf2png archive (no source) should be moved out of /pub/png. Does PingPong still come with sources? I vaguely recall its status changing at some point. Willem? Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 5 03:59:15 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id DAA00363 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 03:59:14 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id EAA21357 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 04:03:05 -0600 Received: from mercury.ukc.ac.uk (mercury.ukc.ac.uk [129.12.21.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id EAA21349 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 04:02:58 -0600 Received: from mint.ukc.ac.uk by mercury.ukc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:56:44 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.ukc.ac.uk) by mint.ukc.ac.uk (4.1/UKC-2.12) id AA11148; Fri, 5 Jan 96 09:56:42 GMT To: PNG List Cc: ksp@maxwell.nde.swri.edu (Keith S. Pickens) Subject: Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 04 Jan 1996 23:25:03 GMT." <14620.9601042325@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 09:56:41 +0000 Message-Id: <11147.820835801@mint.ukc.ac.uk> From: Dave Beckett Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >>>>> On Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:25:03 +0000 (GMT), lilley said: Chris> Dave, if the changes I noted really are the only ones needed Chris> to get it to work with 0.81, could you post a pngmeta-0.9 to Chris> go into pub/png/applications so that people can pick it up and Chris> use it right now? I want to alert the guy who spoke to us Chris> about a Harvest gatherer so he can grab your code and start Chris> using it. I have done as you suggested and uploaded pngmeta 0.9 to the PNG incoming dir on swrinde. It works with the raw 0.81 without any patches. Dave ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 5 06:43:36 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id GAA01918 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 06:43:35 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id GAA22589 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 06:48:49 -0600 Received: from mail.Germany.EU.net (mail.germany.eu.net [192.76.144.65]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id GAA22582 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 06:48:43 -0600 Received: by mail.Germany.EU.net with SMTP (5.59:10/EUnetD-2.5.3.c) via EUnet id NAA11602; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:43:06 +0100 Received: from escserver1.esc.de by mail.esc.de (4.1/GEN-1.2.0.99) via ESC for [192.76.144.65] id AA05190; Fri, 5 Jan 96 13:41:56 +0100 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 13:39:01 +0100 From: Guido Vollbeding Message-Id: <9601051239.AA05349@escserver1.esc.de> Received: by escserver1.esc.de (4.1/GEN-1.2.0.101) via EUnet for escserver2 id AA05349; Fri, 5 Jan 96 13:39:01 +0100 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: swrinde layout ideas Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Hi all, I think you shouldn't change the layout of swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png unless absolute necessary, since there are definitely many links to that site out there, and IMO the contents of /pub/png/applications/ isn't large at all. It is good IMO and sufficient to have a single, small example application for the 'minor' platforms available, as 1stGuide (from me for the Atari) or PingPong (for the NeXT) are. I think they are fairly small, and as long as these are the only ones for the corresponding platform, there would be no need to divide into special OS subdirectories. And, of course, it wouldn't make much sense to provide sources for those apps (if I did so, would you like to see a source archive there with full implementations of JPEG, MPEG, PNG etc.?;-). By the way, I have finished a new release of 1stGuide with minor bug fixes in the PNG-Code and full progressive JPEG support (Hi Tom, I'll contact you separately :-), and I intend to update it next week on swrinde (the archive size is about the same :-). Regards, Guido PS: *Good* graphics formats end with 'G': JPG, MPG, PNG, IMG :-). ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 5 08:20:41 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id IAA02951 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 08:20:41 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id IAA23405 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 08:25:59 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id IAA23400 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 08:25:55 -0600 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 14:20:13 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: PNG List Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601051420.aa16140@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List In reply to the message > From: lilley > Subject: Report from WWW4 > Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 00:03:38 +0000 (GMT) > I showed slides of the interlacing scheme in dot and replicate modes > (thanks for the example images, Glenn). > You're welcome. I've put them in swrinde:incoming/png/w4adam*. Keith, please move them to png/images/png. There are JPGs for the PNG-impaired, too. ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 5 09:28:54 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA04534 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:28:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA24217 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:34:12 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA24212 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:34:07 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA22204 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:27:01 -0500 To: PNG List Subject: Re: swrinde layout ideas In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:42:01 -0600 (CST) <199601050542.XAA06081@ellis.uchicago.edu> Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 10:27:01 -0500 Message-ID: <22202.820855621@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg wonders >> /pub/png gets mirrored by uunet and we need to keep it small. > > Was this their idea? The particular layout we use wasn't mandated by uunet, but they did make it clear that they expect us to keep the size of the mirrored area small. (In fact, when they first started mirroring godzilli, they complained that there was too much stuff in the godzilli archive.) I believe "small" means a few megabytes. Apparently there is not a lot of free space on the drive that holds uunet's /graphics subdirectory. The question of binaries is a separate policy decision. When I was granted uunet space for the IJG JPEG archives, several years ago, I was very specifically told "source and docs only, no binaries". But I'm not sure if they still enforce such a strict policy; Thomas, did tale mention anything of the kind to you? > As far as I know, they've never said anything > about our Info-ZIP archive; we've got binaries for a dozen operating > systems there, and while the archive's not *huge*, it's moderately > big. (Of course, we don't have any images there...) I'm quite prepared to believe that they make an exception for Info-ZIP, since anyone without an unzipper will be unable to make use of large chunks of the uunet archives. In any case, they clearly have different policies for different areas of their archives --- their "no binary" policy obviously doesn't apply to their mirrors of other archive sites. Given that we have only limited space at uunet, I'd be inclined to say that it should be devoted to documents, source code, and test images. I see no need for us to devote space to applications that more properly belong at a platform-specific binaries site (such as the SimTel archives for DOS and Windows stuff). BTW, there is another reason for dividing things at swrinde besides limited space at uunet: not everything at swrinde is "public". In particular, I'd not want to see our mail list traffic archives at uunet, regardless of space. Software beta versions that aren't ready for public release shouldn't go to uunet either. regards, tom lane ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 5 13:06:24 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA08065 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:06:23 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA27489 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:10:58 -0600 Received: from enel.ucalgary.ca (enel.ucalgary.ca [136.159.101.50]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id NAA27484 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:10:52 -0600 Received: from munet-d.enel by enel.ucalgary.ca (5.x/ENEL-5) id AA03802; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 12:05:16 -0700 From: adilger@enel.ucalgary.ca (Andreas Dilger) Message-Id: <9601051905.AA03802@enel.ucalgary.ca> Subject: Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 12:05:15 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <8145.820777591@mint.ukc.ac.uk> from "Dave Beckett" at Jan 4, 96 05:46:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Dave writes: > I have just uploaded to /incoming/png on swrinde.nde.swri.edu a small > program called pngmeta which outputs the meta data (text strings) > inside PNG images. This is a program that WWW indexers / resource > discovery systems such as Lycos, harvest, ... can use to extract meta > data and index images. At WWW4, a representative of Lycos said that > they would do this. > > e.g > mint% pngmeta goldhill.png > pngmeta: PNG meta data for goldhill.png: > Title: GOLDHILL: Photo of hill in small European town. > Copyright: Unknown > > It avoids the processing of IDAT chunks using a custom piece of code > and thus is much faster than PNG displayers. Guy: this code can be > added to libpng if you want. Actually, pngcheck can already do what pngmeta does, and also checks a large part of the validity of the image file, with the exception of IDAT and zTXt chunks. munet-d% pngcheck -t goldhill.png File: goldhill.png Title:GOLDHILL: Photo of hill in small European town. Copyright:Unknown No errors detected in goldhill.png (720x576, 24-bit RGB, non-interlaced). If you think it desirable, I can add a -q switch to not print any messages unless an error occurs, or something similar. Cheers, Andreas. -- Andreas Dilger University of Calgary \"If a man ate a pound of pasta and (403) 220-8792 Micronet Research Group \ a pound of antipasto, would they Dept of Electrical & Computer Engineering \ cancel out, leaving him still http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/ hungry?" -- Dogbert ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 5 15:36:05 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA10081 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:36:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA01128 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:41:13 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id PAA01123 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:41:10 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id PAA03231 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:30:23 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id PAA19939 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:34:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:34:28 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601052134.PAA19939@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: swrinde layout ideas Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > The particular layout we use wasn't mandated by uunet, but they did > make it clear that they expect us to keep the size of the mirrored > area small. Oh, OK. I never heard about that, I guess (or I forgot). > Given that we have only limited space at uunet, I'd be inclined to say > that it should be devoted to documents, source code, and test images. I agree. > BTW, there is another reason for dividing things at swrinde besides > limited space at uunet: not everything at swrinde is "public". In > particular, I'd not want to see our mail list traffic archives at > uunet, regardless of space. Software beta versions that aren't ready > for public release shouldn't go to uunet either. I definitely agree with that, which is why I suggested a png2 directory for public-but-not-mirrored stuff (i.e., binaries). Stuff moved out of png could have symlinks to the new locations since UUNET doesn't mirror links. That would avoid breaking web pages that currently point at swrinde (though not ones that point at UUNET). Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 5 16:28:29 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA10638 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 16:28:27 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA02109 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 16:33:46 -0600 Received: from siesta.cs.wustl.edu (siesta.cs.wustl.edu [128.252.165.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id QAA02104 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 16:33:42 -0600 Received: by siesta.cs.wustl.edu (5.x/ECL-A1.27) id AA05723; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 22:28:11 GMT Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 22:28:11 GMT From: amc@cs.wustl.edu (Adam M. Costello) Message-Id: <9601052228.AA05723@siesta.cs.wustl.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: swrinde layout ideas Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg says: > ...I suggested a png2 directory for public-but-not-mirrored stuff > (i.e., binaries). Good idea, but please don't call it "png2". The "2" looks like a version number. "png-extra"? AMC ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 5 20:14:23 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA12376 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:14:22 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id UAA04840 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:19:38 -0600 Received: from v9000.ntu.ac.sg (v9000.ntu.ac.sg [155.69.1.1]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id UAA04834 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:19:31 -0600 Received: from ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg by ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg (PMDF V5.0-4 #7636) id <01HZOPPW730A985KOL@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg> for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Sat, 06 Jan 1996 10:14:03 +0800 Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 10:14:03 +0800 From: "WILLEM VAN SCHAIK (INTERNET: GWILLEM@NTUVAX.NTU.AC.SG)" Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Message-id: <01HZOPPW75U4985KOL@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg> Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore X-VMS-To: IN%"png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu" X-VMS-Cc: GWILLEM MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Chris wrote: > > > * Conversion > > We said there was a gif2png program but if you had an image format > > such as TIFF which has alpha data (?), tifftoppm file | pnmtopng > file.png > > will loose that data. A tiff2png program would be a good idea. > Yes, it would. > > I just found out that Utah RLE format has an alpha channel and that the > Rayshade ratytracing package outputs coverage information in there. If > anyone has tools to take an RGB png plus a Greyscale PNG (containing the > extracted alpha) and generate an RGBA PNG, please let me know as I have > a nice image that would be a good example of that. It also has a whole > bunch of meta information as keyword-value pairs ina separate text file. > Anyone help me with that? Did you notice that the current pnmtopng (version 2 and higher) has the option of combining an ppm-file for the image and a pgm-file for the alpha channel into a RGBA png-file. So to answer your question: the tools you ask for are there. Just use 2x pngtopnm, followed by "pnmtopng -alpha file1.pgm file2.ppm > file.png". Therefore the problem is how to extract the alpha info out of the TIFF into a pgm-file. I can take on me to develop a tiff2png, that supports alpha, if nobody else has such a thing underway yet. Willem ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 5 20:20:57 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA12410 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:20:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id UAA05009 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:26:18 -0600 Received: from alpha.ntu.ac.sg (alpha.ntu.ac.sg [155.69.1.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id UAA05004 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:26:14 -0600 Received: from ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg by ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg (PMDF V5.0-4 #7636) id <01HZOQ878EPC985KOL@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg> for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Sat, 06 Jan 1996 10:20:46 +0800 Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 10:20:46 +0800 From: "WILLEM VAN SCHAIK (INTERNET: GWILLEM@NTUVAX.NTU.AC.SG)" Subject: Re: swrinde layout ideas To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Message-id: <01HZOQ878FNM985KOL@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg> Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore X-VMS-To: IN%"png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu" X-VMS-Cc: GWILLEM MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Good idea, but please don't call it "png2". The "2" looks like a > version number. > > "png-extra"? What about png-local? But I don't really see the need for such a thing. Willem ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 5 20:26:59 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA12443 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:26:59 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id UAA05056 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:32:23 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id UAA05050 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:32:19 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id UAA13930 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:21:32 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id UAA21019 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:26:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:26:04 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601060226.UAA21019@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Chris Lilley wrote: > Early that evening, Dave Beckett and I pulled a newly-hacked Sun binary > of Arena over from the UK - Dave had done a last minute hack to Arena > the day before the conference - so we could demonstrate a Web browser > with inline PNG, auto gamma correction, tRNS and alpha support - alpha > support was not enabled in Arena for 8 bit displays, before. It works > now. Greg, could you update the Arena entry on the PNG Web page, > please? Is that version publicly available? What's its URL? Are there binaries for all of the usual Unix platforms? Is HP fixed yet? Dave wrote: > > browsers that are keen to support it: Spyglass and I reminded you > > that it was already supported in Mosaic. Only X Mosaic supports PNG so far, to the best of my knowledge. PNG isn't even listed in the wishlist for Mac and Win Mosaic. (Or did you mean SPRY Mosaic?) Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Jan 6 23:38:28 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA01666 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 19:39:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id TAA16745 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 19:45:09 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id TAA16738 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 19:45:06 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id TAA02231 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 19:34:12 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id TAA09085 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 19:38:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 19:38:30 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601070138.TAA09085@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > I had the Windows Netscape 2.0 beta, and it seemed able to read the PNGs on > Greg's pages, only when you scrolled off the screen and back again, they were > gone :-) It read only GIFs. The PNG images have color in them. Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Jan 6 23:42:12 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA00859 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:30:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA16266 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:36:18 -0600 Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net (relay-4.mail.demon.net [158.152.1.64]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id SAA16260 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:36:10 -0600 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id aa24217; 7 Jan 96 0:28 GMT Received: from abwillms.demon.co.uk ([158.152.70.175]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa16874; 7 Jan 96 0:27 GMT Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 19:52:16 From: "Alaric B. Williams' PNG self" Message-Id: <1384@abwillms.demon.co.uk> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF X-Mailer: FIMail V0.9d Lines: 32 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List In your message dated Saturday 6, January 1996 you wrote : > > image 8 bit 4 bit 2 bit 1 bit > -------------------------------------------- > goldhill.gif 73.33 58.17 52.68 51.30 > goldhill.png 56.80 44.43 38.89 36.20 > > hell.gif 55.48 45.81 44.49 43.06 > hell.png 44.44 37.51 33.39 32.08 > > spiral6.gif 158.73 110.57 88.48 77.45 > spiral6.png 94.04 70.58 54.05 45.81 > So PNG seems to be about 15% - 40% faster than GIF. My version of Paintshop Pro is, on the other, excrutiatingly slow with PNG compared to GIF! Regards, ABW -- Alaric B. Williams (alaric@abwillms.demon.co.uk or PNG@abwillms.demon.co.uk) "At the end of the two-hour itinerary, refreshments were provided by Ready-Mix Concrete Ltd." "Don't kill your wife with work - let electricity do it" ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Jan 6 23:42:28 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA01199 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 17:32:47 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA15034 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 16:04:32 -0600 Received: from mercury.ukc.ac.uk (mercury.ukc.ac.uk [129.12.21.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id QAA15029 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 16:04:27 -0600 Received: from mint.ukc.ac.uk by mercury.ukc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 6 Jan 1996 21:58:46 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.ukc.ac.uk) by mint.ukc.ac.uk (4.1/UKC-2.12) id AA18053; Sat, 6 Jan 96 21:58:45 GMT To: PNG List Subject: Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 05 Jan 1996 12:05:15 MST." <9601051905.AA03802@enel.ucalgary.ca> Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 21:58:44 +0000 Message-Id: <18051.820965524@mint.ukc.ac.uk> From: Dave Beckett Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >>>>> On Fri, 5 Jan 1996 12:05:15 -0700 (MST), adilger@enel.ucalgary.ca (Andreas Dilger) said: [snip] Andreas> Actually, pngcheck can already do what pngmeta does, and Andreas> also checks a large part of the validity of the image file, Andreas> with the exception of IDAT and zTXt chunks. Yes I knew that, and I use (my modified version of) pngcheck for fully decoding PNGs but I wrote pngmeta for several reasons: It is an example / test of using libpng 0.85 It outputs SOIF format that Harvest summarisers use It does only this one job It only took a short time to write! :-) Dave ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Jan 6 23:42:34 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA01205 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 17:32:49 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA13814 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 13:53:19 -0600 Received: from wugate.wustl.edu (wugate.wustl.edu [128.252.120.1]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA13809 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 13:53:15 -0600 Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by wugate.wustl.edu (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id NAA20366 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 13:47:40 -0600 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id ac04590; 6 Jan 96 19:30 GMT Received: from abwillms.demon.co.uk ([158.152.70.175]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa05902; 6 Jan 96 19:30 GMT Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:50:01 From: "Alaric B. Williams' PNG self" Message-Id: <1378@abwillms.demon.co.uk> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 X-Mailer: FIMail V0.9d Lines: 19 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List In your message dated Friday 5, January 1996 you wrote : > Only X Mosaic supports PNG so far, to the best of my knowledge. > PNG isn't even listed in the wishlist for Mac and Win Mosaic. > (Or did you mean SPRY Mosaic?) I had the Windows Netscape 2.0 beta, and it seemed able to read the PNGs on Greg's pages, only when you scrolled off the screen and back again, they were gone :-) ABW -- Alaric B. Williams (alaric@abwillms.demon.co.uk or PNG@abwillms.demon.co.uk) "At the end of the two-hour itinerary, refreshments were provided by Ready-Mix Concrete Ltd." "Don't kill your wife with work - let electricity do it" ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Jan 6 23:42:34 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA01202 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 17:32:48 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA14939 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 15:54:43 -0600 Received: from mercury.ukc.ac.uk (mercury.ukc.ac.uk [129.12.21.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id PAA14933 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 15:54:37 -0600 Received: from mint.ukc.ac.uk by mercury.ukc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 6 Jan 1996 21:48:51 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.ukc.ac.uk) by mint.ukc.ac.uk (4.1/UKC-2.12) id AA18009; Sat, 6 Jan 96 21:48:49 GMT To: PNG List Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 05 Jan 1996 20:26:04 CST." <199601060226.UAA21019@ellis.uchicago.edu> Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 21:48:49 +0000 Message-Id: <18008.820964929@mint.ukc.ac.uk> From: Dave Beckett Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >>>>> On Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:26:04 -0600 (CST), Cave Newt said: Cave> Chris Lilley wrote: >> Early that evening, Dave Beckett and I pulled a newly-hacked Sun >> binary of Arena over from the UK - Dave had done a last minute >> hack to Arena the day before the conference - so we could >> demonstrate a Web browser with inline PNG, auto gamma correction, >> tRNS and alpha support - alpha support was not enabled in Arena >> for 8 bit displays, before. It works now. Greg, could you update >> the Arena entry on the PNG Web page, please? Cave> Is that version publicly available? What's its URL? Are there Cave> binaries for all of the usual Unix platforms? Is HP fixed yet? The publically (and latest) available version of arena beta-1-c supports all the above and is available in source form from http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/Arena/arena-beta-1c-src.tgz and in binary form for linux, sgi and sun4 at http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/Arena/Dist-beta-1 The HP version problems were fixed months ago but no binaries have been produced for it for a while. Yesterday I tried Arena beta-1-a on a 24-bit SGI display and the alpha blending, gamma, transparency and backgrounds all worked fine despite what Chris and I reported earlier. I plan to add the progressive display next and maybe some way of seeing the text strings. Dave ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Jan 6 23:42:35 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA01208 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 17:32:50 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA11394 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 10:07:49 -0600 Received: from zaphod.in.tu-clausthal.de (zaphod.in.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.100.142]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id KAA11389 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 10:07:38 -0600 Received: (from fromme@localhost) by zaphod.in.tu-clausthal.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA05319 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 17:02:02 +0100 From: Oliver Fromme Message-Id: <199601061602.RAA05319@zaphod.in.tu-clausthal.de> Subject: Re: Benchmarks vs GIF To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 17:02:02 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <199601031647.KAA05114@phoenix.net> from "Tim Wegner" at Jan 3, 96 10:36:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Tim asked: > Oliver, what are your results? The following benchmarks were done on a P5-100, 192 Mb main memory, 512 Kb cache, running MD-DOS 5.0. I used a special version of QPNG 1.7c with support for PNG and GIF, and timings were done with a software called RecTime. Each image was displayed 100 times consecutively, times are in seconds. Everything was running from a virtual RAM disk, so hard disk speed and caching software did not influence the benchmarks. QPNG's GIF routines are pretty fast (I'd say about as fast as VPIC), and the PNG routines are fairly well optimized (except for interlaced images, which I did not test). I used the following images (available from swrinde): goldhill: 720 x 576 hell: 512 x 512 spiral6: 1024 x 768 First, the visual impression is clear: PNG is noticeably faster than GIF. No doubt about that. image 8 bit 4 bit 2 bit 1 bit -------------------------------------------- goldhill.gif 73.33 58.17 52.68 51.30 goldhill.png 56.80 44.43 38.89 36.20 hell.gif 55.48 45.81 44.49 43.06 hell.png 44.44 37.51 33.39 32.08 spiral6.gif 158.73 110.57 88.48 77.45 spiral6.png 94.04 70.58 54.05 45.81 So PNG seems to be about 15% - 40% faster than GIF. Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18-61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany BBS (TBH-BOX): +49-5323-5143 Email: fromme@zaphod.in.tu-clausthal.de FTP: ftp.tu-clausthal.de WWW: http://www.tu-clausthal.de/~inof/ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sun Jan 7 19:52:41 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA02939 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 19:52:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id TAA29847 for png-list-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 19:57:34 -0600 Received: from llyene.jpl.nasa.gov (llyene.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.75.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id TAA29842 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 19:57:29 -0600 Received: from quest.jpl.nasa.gov (quest.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.75.43]) by llyene.jpl.nasa.gov (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id RAA10968 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 17:52:32 -0800 Received: by quest.jpl.nasa.gov (NX5.67f2/NX3.0S) id AA04215; Sun, 7 Jan 96 17:51:24 -0800 Message-Id: <9601080151.AA04215@quest.jpl.nasa.gov> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Mark Adler Date: Sun, 7 Jan 96 17:51:23 -0800 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 References: <199601060226.UAA21019@ellis.uchicago.edu> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >> Only X Mosaic supports PNG so far, In the words of Obi-Wan, there is another. OmniWeb for Nextstep supports png directly (though the version that does, 2.0, is still in beta). mark ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sun Jan 7 21:53:01 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA03453 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 21:53:00 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id VAA00935 for png-list-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 21:58:30 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id VAA00930 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 21:58:26 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id VAA19173 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 21:47:27 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id VAA05182 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 21:52:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 21:52:33 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601080352.VAA05182@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I wrote: >>> Only X Mosaic supports PNG so far, Mark responded: > In the words of Obi-Wan, there is another. OmniWeb for Nextstep supports png In the words of me, "you took my quote out of context." I was responding to someone's claim that "Mosaic supports PNG," and of the NCSA flavors, only X Mosaic does. (There's also AIR/SPRY/CompuServe Mosaic, Spyglass Mosaic, Amiga Mosaic and probably half a dozen others.) Obviously there are a lot of other non-Mosaic, PNG-supporting browsers out there (like the recently discussed Arena), or I wouldn't have such a popu- lous browser page...on *your* machine. Ahem. :-) Cheers, Greg P.S. Yes, I noticed you testing on the pngpic2 page, too. ;-) P.P.S. For those who may actually have wanted to click on the pngpic2 images to get the (monstrously large) 1024x768 PNG images, they have been restored to Dan Pape's machine at NCSA. ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 04:59:47 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id EAA05705 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 04:59:46 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id FAA04723 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 05:03:54 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id FAA04718 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 05:03:46 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:57:46 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <6411.9601081057@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:57:47 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <18051.820965524@mint.ukc.ac.uk> from "Dave Beckett" at Jan 6, 96 09:58:44 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Dave wrote: > Andreas Dilger said: > Andreas> Actually, pngcheck can already do what pngmeta does, [...] > Andreas> with the exception of IDAT and zTXt chunks. > > Yes I knew that, and I use (my modified version of) pngcheck for > fully decoding PNGs but I wrote pngmeta for several reasons: > > It is an example / test of using libpng 0.85 > It outputs SOIF format that Harvest summarisers use > It does only this one job > It only took a short time to write! :-) I think that decoding zTXT chunks was an important enough task that a new tool was justified. Otherwise, there was the risk that ppl would not use zTXT on the grounds that indexing tools ignored it ... Making it output SOIF was also clever. Hopefully the Harvest gatherers worldwide are using this tool even as we speak. Is there a Harvest mailing list that this could be announced on? -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 05:15:02 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id FAA05799 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 05:15:01 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id FAA04860 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 05:19:18 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id FAA04855 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 05:19:03 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:12:13 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <6669.9601081112@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:12:10 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199601050132.UAA17977@www.one.net> from "GuyS" at Jan 4, 96 08:39:37 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List GuyS said: > [I wrote]: > > We clearly need to: > > # get the push model library stable and promote it's use > > # get Netscape to commit to supporting inline PNG, and > I've only had a few bug reports for libpng 0.85. I'll work on > it over the weekend to get 0.86 out, so we can put it on > the public sites and push it. Great. > For 0.9, I'll have to finish the > dithering (for X-Mosaic) and perhaps add a cHRM > transformation, perhaps using the code I sent to the list in ... June, was it? ;-) > and look at the documentation (I've had > two people send me changes, but I haven't had time to > go through them. I'll get there). Good documentation will of course be a big help. A quick tutorial or two, showing how to work up a minimal pull-model decoder and a minimal push-model decoder, will probably be an advantage. > Netscape asked me to write a plug-in for inline PNG files. > I'll be investigating that this weekend also. Anyone here > write a plug-in yet? We may need to push a little harder > to get them to integrate it directly into their code. We'll > see. I would caution against this: a) plug-ins require _you_ to write and maintain the code rather than Netscape b) plug ins are platform specific. Are you going to write Windoze, Mac, SGI, HP, IBM, DEC, Sun, Linux ... code? c) plug-ins are intimately tied to a particular browser, so they don't help anyone else. Putting the same effort into good documentation and code examples is likely to be of greater long-term benefit. d) PNG is the replacement for GIF. It should be a core part of the browser (on all platforms) just as HTML is a core part of the browser. Plug-ins are for experimental or specialised media types. PNG is no longer in either category. -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 05:59:07 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id FAA06406 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 05:59:06 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id GAA05144 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 06:03:19 -0600 Received: from mercury.ukc.ac.uk (mercury.ukc.ac.uk [129.12.21.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id GAA05129 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 06:01:41 -0600 Received: from mint.ukc.ac.uk by mercury.ukc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:55:03 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.ukc.ac.uk) by mint.ukc.ac.uk (4.1/UKC-2.12) id AA24523; Mon, 8 Jan 96 11:54:57 GMT To: PNG List Subject: Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 08 Jan 1996 10:57:47 GMT." <6411.9601081057@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 11:54:56 +0000 Message-Id: <24522.821102096@mint.ukc.ac.uk> From: Dave Beckett Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >>>>> About "Re: Announcement: pngmeta - PNG meta data", Chris said: Chris> Dave wrote: >> [...] but I wrote pngmeta for several reasons: >> >> It is an example / test of using libpng 0.85 >> It outputs SOIF format that Harvest summarisers use >> It does only this one job >> It only took a short time to write! :-) Chris> I think that decoding zTXT chunks was an important enough task Chris> that a new tool was justified. Otherwise, there was the risk Chris> that ppl would not use zTXT on the grounds that indexing tools Chris> ignored it ... I realised after sending this message that zTXT was the 5th reason; and an important one. In fact, I was/am considering if I even need to use libpng here; just a simple chunk reader that uses zlib to decode the text chunks. pngmeta may need not do checking of the PNG images and should be as quick and as friendly to use as possible - no errors / warnings output. Any thoughts? The contrary view is that since we can, we should, check PNG image consistancy at every opportunity. Chris> Making it output SOIF was also clever. Hopefully the Harvest Chris> gatherers worldwide are using this tool even as we speak. Is Chris> there a Harvest mailing list that this could be announced on? Chris> Chris> -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to I will look into this, probably on the harvest newsgroup. There is also a harvest support mailing list. I would prefer to package up pngmeta with instructions on how to customize it with Harvest (and maybe with libpng and zlib) and maybe ask the harvest project if they would like to include it in their distribution as they already do with other programs such as ps2txt, dvi2tty etc. Dave ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 05:59:20 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id FAA06413 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 05:59:20 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id GAA05156 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 06:04:39 -0600 Received: from wintermute.ncsa.uiuc.edu (wintermute.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.103.50]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id GAA05151 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 06:04:36 -0600 Received: by wintermute.ncsa.uiuc.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO) for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu id FAA11150; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 05:57:56 -0600 From: dpape@wintermute.ncsa.uiuc.edu (Daniel X. Pape) Message-Id: <199601081157.FAA11150@wintermute.ncsa.uiuc.edu> Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 05:57:48 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199601060226.UAA21019@ellis.uchicago.edu> from "Cave Newt" at Jan 5, 96 08:26:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg wrote: > Only X Mosaic supports PNG so far, to the best of my knowledge. > PNG isn't even listed in the wishlist for Mac and Win Mosaic. > (Or did you mean SPRY Mosaic?) As far as I know (at least since last Wed.) PNG sort of works in the internal version of NCSA Mosaic for the Mac. This is part of an emailI got last week from our Mac guy, Tom Redman: > I have gotten the PNG progressive loads to work. I just have to make sure I > have an 8k chunk before I start. Yuck. There must be some define the > regulates the size of the zbuffer, but I haven't looked for it yet. > > I also can not do multiple concurrent downloads without a crash. Do you > know of a reentrancy problem with the library? > > Thomas Redman (redman@ncsa.uiuc.edu) > Software Development Group, National Center for Supercomputing Applications > University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign I'm not yet sure what his problems might be, but I just thought I'd let everyone know that it is soon coming for Mac Mosaic... Dan -- Daniel X. Pape dpape@ncsa.uiuc.edu Finger for Public PGP Key. ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 06:05:30 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id GAA06466 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 06:05:29 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id GAA05213 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 06:11:03 -0600 Received: from wintermute.ncsa.uiuc.edu (wintermute.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.103.50]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id GAA05208 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 06:11:00 -0600 Received: by wintermute.ncsa.uiuc.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO) for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu id GAA11357; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 06:04:20 -0600 From: dpape@wintermute.ncsa.uiuc.edu (Daniel X. Pape) Message-Id: <199601081204.GAA11357@wintermute.ncsa.uiuc.edu> Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 06:04:13 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <14802.9601050003@afs.mcc.ac.uk> from "lilley" at Jan 5, 96 00:03:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Chris wrote: > Several people seemed to consider "has PNG arrived > yet" to be synonymous with "is there a Photoshop plugin". I told them > there was one for MS Windoze but not yet for the Mac. ... > We clearly need to: > > # get a good Photoshop export option that handles alpha information > and writes valid gamma and chromaticity data (which Photoshop > uses internally anyway) on Mac and PC platforms Mac is more important. I have been working on a Mac Photoshop import/export plug-in (on and off) since about version 0.71. Its no where near being done, and since I am still in school, it probably won't be done for a few more months. If anyone else wants to take a swing at it, go ahead. Just let me know, so I can stop working on it! If no one else wants to bother, I will keep working on it, and I'll periodically update everyone on my progress. Dan -- Daniel X. Pape dpape@ncsa.uiuc.edu Finger for Public PGP Key. ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 09:24:19 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA08740 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:24:18 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA06982 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:29:19 -0600 Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA06977 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:29:14 -0600 Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA17208; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:23:26 -0500 Date: 08 Jan 96 10:21:16 EST From: Owen Mortensen To: ngf , "Daniel X. Pape" Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 Message-ID: Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Chris wrote: > Several people seemed to consider "has PNG arrived > yet" to be synonymous with "is there a Photoshop plugin". I told them > there was one for MS Windoze but not yet for the Mac. Anyone know where the Windoze version is available? I have version 3.0.4. Owen ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 09:51:11 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA09811 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:51:10 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA07338 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:56:45 -0600 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA07333 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:56:41 -0600 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA12110; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:50:54 -0500 Date: 08 Jan 96 10:48:51 EST From: Owen Mortensen To: ngf Subject: W3C Message-ID: Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Anyone know what's happening with the W3C? The 30 day initial review period has long since expired. Is there a mailing list? What's the next step? Owen ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 09:59:32 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA09857 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:59:32 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA07420 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:05:09 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id KAA07413 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:05:06 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id JAA02087 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:54:05 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id JAA17663 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:59:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:59:03 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601081559.JAA17663@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Chris wrote: >> Several people seemed to consider "has PNG arrived >> yet" to be synonymous with "is there a Photoshop plugin". I told them >> there was one for MS Windoze but not yet for the Mac. Owen wrote: > Anyone know where the Windoze version is available? I have version 3.0.4. It's been on the miscellaneous-apps page and on swrinde for a couple of months. Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 10:11:17 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA10047 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:11:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA07607 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:16:54 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id KAA07598 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:16:50 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id KAA02787 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:05:49 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id KAA18927 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:10:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:10:48 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601081610.KAA18927@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > The publicly (and latest) available version of arena beta-1-c > supports all the above OK, I've just updated the browsers page. Arena also supports 16-bit color-depth images, right? Are they ever going to fix the 16-bit X support?? Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 11:19:31 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA11361 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:19:30 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA08875 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:24:49 -0600 Received: from jeeves.va.pubnix.com (jeeves.va.pubnix.com [199.170.214.66]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id LAA08870 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:24:44 -0600 Received: from garotte.va.pubnix.com by jeeves.va.pubnix.com with ESMTP id MAA26036; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:19:00 -0500 Received: from localhost by garotte.va.pubnix.com with SMTP id MAA16779; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:18:59 -0500 Message-Id: To: PNG List Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Jan 1996 11:12:10 GMT." <6669.9601081112@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 12:18:59 -0500 From: "Josh M. Osborne" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List In message <6669.9601081112@afs.mcc.ac.uk>, lilley writes: [...stuff with ">>" is (apparently) GuyS...] >> Netscape asked me to write a plug-in for inline PNG files. >> I'll be investigating that this weekend also. Anyone here >> write a plug-in yet? We may need to push a little harder > to get them to integrate it directly into their code. We'll >> see. > >I would caution against this: > >a) plug-ins require _you_ to write and maintain the code rather than Netscape >b) plug ins are platform specific. Are you going to write Windoze, Mac, SGI, > HP, IBM, DEC, Sun, Linux ... code? >c) plug-ins are intimately tied to a particular browser, so they don't help > anyone else. Putting the same effort into good documentation and code > examples is likely to be of greater long-term benefit. I have a few therys about this. Let me share them: (1) Netscape wants us to put our money where our mouth is - if we can do a plug-in that doesn't crash, then they will gain a higher level of confidense in our work. (2) It could even be that the plug-ins are closely modeled on their internal API, and they can literally take a good plug-in, and a set of macros and make it an internal part of Netscape. (3) They are busy and just want to keep us off their heals for a little bit while they fry bigger fish. Any of them could be true, none of them could be true. None of them (not even #3) is a reason to *not* do a plug-in. In the best case having the plug-in (drimatacly) lowers the time-to-beta, in the worst case it puts us in a better position to complain. >d) PNG is the replacement for GIF. It should be a core part of the browser > (on all platforms) just as HTML is a core part of the browser. Plug-ins > are for experimental or specialised media types. PNG is no longer in > either category. However: (a) being able to load PNG's only after finding and installing the right plug-in is better then not being able to load PNG's at all. (b) Plug-ins also have a reputation for supporting the "cooler" formats (animations, sounds, 3D spinning cubes). Why not give the impresion that PNG is cool. :-) (I would do one, except there seems to be no documentation on how to do a Unix one, and I don't have a Windows or MacOS machine) ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 11:42:54 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA11566 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:42:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA09153 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:48:32 -0600 Received: from mercury.ukc.ac.uk (mercury.ukc.ac.uk [129.12.21.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id LAA09144 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:48:04 -0600 Received: from mint.ukc.ac.uk by mercury.ukc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 8 Jan 1996 17:41:50 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.ukc.ac.uk) by mint.ukc.ac.uk (4.1/UKC-2.12) id AA26163; Mon, 8 Jan 96 17:41:47 GMT To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: PNG in WWW Browsers Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 17:41:47 +0000 Message-Id: <26162.821122907@mint.ukc.ac.uk> From: Dave Beckett Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I was looking around for references to PNG and found the PNG home page, W3C's page, Compuserves, Group 42's, various graphics FAQs, my, Chris, Andreas, Greg and other home pages and some others including this: "Web Review: GIF up the Ghost" http://www-e1c.gnn.com/gnn/wr/nov10/tech/savetz/index.html which compares and discusses GIF, ART and PNG. It also says: "For the impatient masses, PNG may fast become more popular than ART, simply because it is better supported today, especially on the Web. Browsers that already handle the PNG format include AIR Mosaic (Windows), Arena (UNIX/X), and Mosaic 95 (Windows 95). A dozen other browsers have already committed to supporting PNG. Netscape Navigator will support PNG, but probably not until January 1996." by Kevin Savetz (savetz@northcoast.com) Copyright ) Songline Studios, Inc., 1995. Is Kevin correct? I don't remember having heard AIR make any such report. Who makes Mosaic 95? Dave ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 12:25:08 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA12345 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:25:07 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id MAA09874 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:30:29 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id MAA09868 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:30:22 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:24:21 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <10552.9601081824@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Report from WWW4 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:24:21 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: from "Josh M. Osborne" at Jan 8, 96 12:18:59 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > I have a few therys about this. Let me share them: So do I: 1) Netscape want to concentrate on other things. However, if someone does a plug-in (for, say, the Windoze platform) it lets them bask in reflected glory by claiming PNG support with no effort. The fact that their browser would only support PNG iff you were on the right platform and had downloaded the plug-in would be quietly not mentioned. Go on, Netscape, prove me wrong. > (1) Netscape wants us to put our money where our mouth is - if we can do > a plug-in that doesn't crash, then they will gain a higher level of > confidense in our work. If we do a plug in that does not crash, what is the hurry to re-implement it as a native media type? > (2) It could even be that the plug-ins are closely modeled on their > internal API, and they can literally take a good plug-in, and a set > of macros and make it an internal part of Netscape. It could be. Or it could be that the plug-ins have a different API altogether and all the effort would be wasted. Who is to say? > (3) They are busy and just want to keep us off their heals for a little > bit while they fry bigger fish. Almost certainly. > Any of them could be true, none of them could be true. None of them > (not even #3) is a reason to *not* do a plug-in. In the best case > having the plug-in (drimatacly) lowers the time-to-beta, in the worst > case it puts us in a better position to complain. I shall attempt to get a statement from the Netscape representative to W3C who I will hopefully see in Paris this Friday. > >d) PNG is the replacement for GIF. It should be a core part of the browser > > (on all platforms) just as HTML is a core part of the browser. Plug-ins > > are for experimental or specialised media types. PNG is no longer in > > either category. > > However: > (a) being able to load PNG's only after finding and installing the right > plug-in is better then not being able to load PNG's at all. > > (b) Plug-ins also have a reputation for supporting the "cooler" formats > (animations, sounds, 3D spinning cubes). Why not give the impresion that > PNG is cool. :-) Having Netscape support it inline as a native media type will give a lot of the more, erm, readilly influenced people the message that PNG is cool. The rest of the people knew that anyway. > (I would do one, except there seems to be no documentation on how to > do a Unix one, and I don't have a Windows or MacOS machine) Point me to evidence it is even possible to write plug-ins for Netscape on any Unix platform. -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 12:30:33 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA12399 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:30:29 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id MAA09937 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:36:09 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id MAA09929 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:36:02 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:30:11 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <10574.9601081830@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: PNG in WWW Browsers To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:30:12 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <26162.821122907@mint.ukc.ac.uk> from "Dave Beckett" at Jan 8, 96 05:41:47 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > "Web Review: GIF up the Ghost" > http://www-e1c.gnn.com/gnn/wr/nov10/tech/savetz/index.html > > which compares and discusses GIF, ART and PNG. That was the article I held up at WWW4 and quoted "GIF is already eight years old. For a file format, that's ancient -- in dog years, GIF is about 56. (If GIF was a dog -- and many people are saying that GIF _is_ a dog, but we'll get to that in a moment.)..." -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 13:13:59 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA13041 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:13:58 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA11032 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:19:09 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA11026 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:19:02 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:13:12 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <10651.9601081913@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Test image with tRNS and tEXT To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:13:15 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <6669.9601081112@afs.mcc.ac.uk> from "lilley" at Jan 8, 96 11:12:10 am Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I have just uploaded a test image to swrinde which was primarily intended as fodder for pngmeta and it's ilk: cguhpb [59]: pngmeta imposs-t.png pngmeta: PNG meta data for imposs-t.png: Copyright: © John Irwin, Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester 1996 Title: Impossible Triangle Hardware: HP 9000/735 workstation, 128Mb RAM Software: Rayshade 4.0.6 Description: Raytraced optical illusion - impossible triangle made of three pieces of wood at 90 degrees to each other... plus some technical details of the ray tracing Field of view: 0.04³ Number of eye rays: 1,514,205 Total number of rays: 2,134,360 Supersampling: adaptive, 9 per pixel, with jitter Supersampled pixels: 58,227 Total CPU time (sec): 264.41 (263.82u + 0.59s) Time per intersected ray: 300 µs Total memory allocated: 105,742 bytes My emailer will almost certainly not do the correct encoding so trust me when I say that this includes a copyright symbol, a degree symbol and a mu (micro) symbol plus several unusual keywords, with spaces. There is also a tRNS chunk for people testing this as an inline image. I also made an RGBA version but since the alpha mask is almost entirely black or white this offers no real benefit in this instance. The file is only 10% bigger with the alpha channel, though. Software was pnmtopng 2.0 with a minor hack to stop it using the first space as the end of the keyword; it took the first tab, instead. The actual image is an 800x800 raytrace (see description field). Pedants such as myself will not that the image actually contains premultiplied alpha so the antialiasing round the edges is not as good as it might be. Oh well. imposs-a.png 800x800, 32-bit RGB+alpha, non-interlaced 31,3483 bytes imposs-t.png 800x800, 24-bit RGB, non-interlaced, tRNS 28,4148 bytes -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 13:53:36 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA13636 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:53:36 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA12051 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:59:00 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA12044 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:58:48 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:52:53 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <10740.9601081952@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Test image with entire Latin-1 coded character set To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:52:55 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <10651.9601081913@afs.mcc.ac.uk> from "lilley" at Jan 8, 96 07:13:15 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I have just uploaded another test image (8859.png) to swrinde which was also intended as fodder for pngmeta and it's ilk, and to test any other program that (claims to) display tEXT chunks. It contains all the printable Latin-1 characters (including A0, the non-breaking space). I have also uploaded a screen shot (8859-picture.png) with one representation of these characters as arranged in 8859.png. Macs apparently have problems with these characters if they try and use the default charset and a mapping table: 178; Superscript two 179; Superscript three 188; Fraction one-fourth 189; Fraction one-half 190; Fraction three-fourths 208; Capital Eth, Icelandic 215; Multiply sign 221; Capital Y, acute accent 222; Capital THORN, Icelandic 240; Small eth, Icelandic 253; Small y, acute accent 254; Small thorn, Icelandic As they are so small, for those of you with MIME compatible mailers I enclose these two files in a separate message. 8859-picture.png 3013 bytes 8859.png 769 bytes -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 8 13:56:38 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA13716 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:56:32 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA12115 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 14:02:09 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA12108 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 14:01:59 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:55:29 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <10760.9601081955@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: MIME two 8859 test images To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:55:32 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <10651.9601081913@afs.mcc.ac.uk> from "lilley" at Jan 8, 96 07:13:15 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=%#%record%#% Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List --%#%record%#% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 48 Here is 8859.png followed by 8859-picture.png: --%#%record%#% Content-Type: image/png Content-Name: /tmp/8859.png Content-Length: 1043 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAF0AAAAYAQMAAACiKmNfAAAABlBMVEUAAAD/78xQy+yaAAAA G3RFWHRUaXRsZQBJU08gODg1OS0xIGNoYXJhY3RlcnOukdG9AAAAuHRFWHREZXNjcmlwdGlv bgBIZXJlIGFyZSBhbGwgdGhlIHByaW50YWJsZSBjaGFyYWN0ZXJzIGZyb20gdGhlIApJU08g TGF0aW4tMSBjb2RlZCBjaGFyYWN0ZXIgc2V0OiBoZXggY29kZXMgMjAgdG8gN0UKYW5kIEEw IHRvIEZGLiBUaGF0IGluY2x1ZGVzIGEgc3BhY2UgKDIwKSBhbmQgYSAKbm9uLWJyZWFraW5n 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DfEpro+8DlsGmKwaWBufxfNG7ZeuAnNj7UTFxilcHzjI9sJVOL9wtCjOk7UUSNOBu7l+lXqI h9BWsnsKD56pciXVHIKfuDnF8H9Q/gOIMbszYDS8nAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== --%#%record%#% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 718 -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ --%#%record%#%-- ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 9 02:12:25 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id CAA01545 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:12:24 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id CAA23755 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:16:48 -0600 Received: from www.one.net (www.one.net [206.112.192.120]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id CAA23750 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:16:44 -0600 Received: from [206.112.193.18] (port-1-8.access.one.net [206.112.193.18]) by www.one.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA24121 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 03:05:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199601090805.DAA24121@www.one.net> To: "png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu" Subject: PNG on the WWW (was: Report from the WWW) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 96 03:12:57 -0500 From: GuyS X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List -- [ From: GuyS * EMC.Ver #2.5.03 ] -- Offer for all web browser authors at the bottom of this message. > In message <6669.9601081112@afs.mcc.ac.uk>, lilley writes: > [...stuff with ">>" is (apparently) GuyS...] That's me. Now if I can only figure out how to change my name back to Guy Schalnat... > >> Netscape asked me to write a plug-in for inline PNG files. > >> I'll be investigating that this weekend also. Anyone here > >> write a plug-in yet? We may need to push a little harder > > to get them to integrate it directly into their code. We'll > >> see. > > > >I would caution against this: > > > >a) plug-ins require _you_ to write and maintain the code rather than Netscape Well, the code is mostly libpng, (I think. I haven't actually gotten it to work yet), so I don't mind, although I wish the plug-in documentation was better. > >b) plug ins are platform specific. Are you going to write Windoze, Mac, SGI, > > HP, IBM, DEC, Sun, Linux ... code? I'm not. I will release the code so someone else can..., but I'm hoping that this is just a temporary measure. More on that later. > >c) plug-ins are intimately tied to a particular browser, so they don't help > > anyone else. Putting the same effort into good documentation and code > > examples is likely to be of greater long-term benefit. Getting Netscape to support it will go a long way towards getting it accepted by the net. While I do need to do the documentation (actually, I just need to review the documentation that others have done for me), I'd argue that having Netscape on board is of greater long-term benefit. Besides, I need another test bed for the progressive side of libpng, just to see what problems are waiting in the wings. I always prefer to do a few implementations on any library, and this is the second for the progressive reader. > I have a few therys about this. Let me share them: > > (1) Netscape wants us to put our money where our mouth is - if we can do a > plug-in that doesn't crash, then they will gain a higher level of confidense in > our work. I agree with this. Even if they haven't thought of it yet, we can use this to our advantage. > (2) It could even be that the plug-ins are closely modeled on their internal > API, and they can literally take a good plug-in, and a set of macros and make > it an internal part of Netscape. Unknown. > (3) They are busy and just want to keep us off their heals for a little bit > while they fry bigger fish. Also Unknown. > >d) PNG is the replacement for GIF. It should be a core part of the browser > > (on all platforms) just as HTML is a core part of the browser. Plug-ins > > are for experimental or specialised media types. PNG is no longer in > > either category. Well... We are barely out of experimental, and libpng is still in beta, so I don't mind that for now. However, it needs to be part of the core soon. > However: > (a) being able to load PNG's only after finding and installing the right > plug-in is better then not being able to load PNG's at all. True. > (b) Plug-ins also have a reputation for supporting the "cooler" formats > (animations, sounds, 3D spinning cubes). Why not give the impresion that > PNG is cool. :-) Also true. > (I would do one, except there seems to be no documentation on how to do a Unix > one, and I don't have a Windows or MacOS machine) There's not much documentation on the Windows side... Also, I have a MacOS machine, but I may need one of you experts to help. As for the Unix side, I wonder if they've implemented anything yet. You may not be able to do a Unix port. Yet another arguement for having it part of the core code. I got snowed out of the weekend, so I didn't finish libpng 0.86. I hope to have it done tomorrow or Wednesday, but we'll see. I am having problems with the plug-in (partly because the windows examples are written in MFC, and I have always been an OWL user, from when there was no MFC). I will probably be bringing up issues as I run into them, or get stuck and need advice. I don't expect the plug-in to be a permanent solution. I hope to force them to adapt libpng into their core set of code, and I feel a plug-in can demonstrate to them how easy it will be. I also now have a contact that can help push PNG inside Netscape (I think). Unfortuantly, we here at Group 42 don't have the big connections, so we'll need to work from the other side, which I think is why they asked me to do this in the first place. I'll keep you updated. BTW, I do want to be fair to you other browser authors. I'm willing to help implement libpng into the other browsers also. The bad news is that I don't have a large amount of time, but I will give any of you equal time that I spend on netscape. If things calm down any, I'll even be willing to take a weekend and help anyone implement it, providing you pay for my travel expences and lodging (I'm perfectly willing to stay at your house, I don't need a hotel, fast food is fine, and I will drive if you're close to Ohio). -Guy (In all honesty, I prefer Mosaic over Netscape anyway. But I'm trying to be fair) ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 9 07:34:20 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id HAA04007 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 07:34:19 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id HAA26249 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 07:39:52 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id HAA26244 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 07:39:48 -0600 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 13:31:48 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: PNG List Subject: Re: W3C Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601091331.aa05771@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List In reply to the message > Date: 08 Jan 96 10:48:51 EST > From: Owen Mortensen > Subject: W3C > Message-ID: > Anyone know what's happening with the W3C? The 30 day initial review period > has long since expired. Is there a mailing list? What's the next step? > > Owen It "long since expired" if the start date is taken as the date of the W3C draft of 26 Nov 95, but it has only "just now expired" if it is taken as the date of Karen's announcement, which was 8 December 1995. The only mailing list mentioned on the W3C pages is the one mentioned in the spec itself, namely png-info@uunet.uu.net (which is just a reflector to png-list, isn't it? Maybe not. I sent a message there yesterday and it didn't come through) The next step is to replace the "draft 0.92" with a "PNG 1.0". Since there weren't any comments by the reviewers, that's easily done. I would recommend that this be done by editing the "0.92b" HTML master file that I posted to swrinde, which differs from 0.92 only in having some additional internal cross references, some long lines split, the addition of chapter and section numbers, and some HTML comments that can be used to generate an INTERNET Draft "RFC" style version of the spec (NO technical or other editorial changes). Thomas complained that the page was "broken" but he wasn't specific about his complaint (copyright issues?). The W3C "PNG overview page" is certainly broken, making no reference to draft 10, and saying that the MIME type for PNG is "image/jpeg". Tom Lane mentioned converting the master file to "linuxdoc" format, but I don't know how he's coming along with that. In view of the fact that the W3C "working paper" was dated November 26, I think "PNG 1.0" ought to be dated 26 December, which is 30 days later, and more significantly, is prior to the first anniversary of the GIF tax announcement that precipitated the development of PNG. ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 9 09:03:19 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA05336 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:03:19 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA27207 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:08:55 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA27202 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:08:51 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA10192 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:00:55 -0500 To: PNG List Subject: Re: W3C In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 9 Jan 96 13:31:48 GMT <9601091331.aa05771@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 10:00:55 -0500 Message-ID: <10190.821199655@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Tom Lane mentioned converting the master file to "linuxdoc" format, > but I don't know how he's coming along with that. I'd still like to do that before we call it PNG 1.0, but am not sure how soon I can finish it. Not today, for sure ;-) regards, tom lane ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 9 09:23:08 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA05640 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:23:07 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA27416 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:28:51 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id JAA27411 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 09:28:47 -0600 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 15:15:06 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: PNG List Subject: Re: W3C Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601091515.aa06677@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Regarding issuance of PNG 1.0, recall that the spec now says: Items not yet completed in this working draft include: * Additional standard tEXt keywords are under consideration. * Non-draft versions of the deflate and zlib specifications need to be generated. No technical changes are believed needed in those documents. * All these items will be completed before version 1.0 is issued. As far as "additional keywords under consideration," I think we took care of that by defining "Creation Time". The only other one I recall was my suggestion: Converted From File from which PNG was made (Complete URL suggested) I will withdraw that suggestion (but continue to use the keyword as an unregistered one) if it'll help speed up the release of PNG 1.0 Is anything happening with regard to "non-draft" specs for deflate/zlib? ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 9 13:14:00 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA11361 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:13:59 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA01112 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:13:40 -0600 Received: from hp89.rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (hp89.rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.9.41]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA01106 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:13:28 -0600 Message-Id: <199601091913.NAA01106@dworkin.wustl.edu> Received: from hp60.rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de by hp89.rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/15.6) id AA281004794; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:13:15 +0100 Received: by hp60.rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (1.37.109.15/15.6) id AA026454754; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:12:34 +0100 From: Alexander Lehmann Subject: Re: MIME two 8859 test images To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu (PNG List) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 20:12:31 MET In-Reply-To: <10760.9601081955@afs.mcc.ac.uk>; from "lilley" at Jan 8, 96 7:55 pm X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Hello all, >From Chris' mail: > --%#%record%#% > Content-Type: image/png > Content-Name: /tmp/8859.png > Content-Length: 1043 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 What is the status of the registration of png as media type? image/png works with my .mime-types configuration, but until it is `officially' registered, image/x-png should be used, I guess. bye, Alexander -- Alexander Lehmann, | "On the Internet, alex@hal.rhein-main.de (plain, MIME, NeXT) | nobody knows alexlehm@rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (plain) | you're a dog." ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 9 14:39:14 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA13581 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:39:12 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA03165 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:38:27 -0600 Received: from wugate.wustl.edu (wugate.wustl.edu [128.252.120.1]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA03160 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:38:22 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk by wugate.wustl.edu (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id OAA08948 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:38:06 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:36:12 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <15754.9601092036@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: MIME two 8859 test images To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:36:15 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199601091913.NAA01106@dworkin.wustl.edu> from "Alexander Lehmann" at Jan 9, 96 08:12:31 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > What is the status of the registration of png as media type? image/png works > with my .mime-types configuration, but until it is `officially' registered, > image/x-png should be used, I guess. In theory, yes. The actual situation is that the MIME registration process is fatally broken, and no-one seems to be fixing it. There are entrenched interests out there who have fixed views on what should and should not get registered. Those views are contrary to the actual wording in the RFCs, but still ... the upshot is that it is now near impossible to register a new media type. Even the ISO committee that designed the Computer Graphics Metafile, for example, had a hard time registering CGM. Someone who is well known in the IETF community spent over a year trying to register powerpoint as a media type, for example, and then had to give up. -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 9 14:44:22 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA13713 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:44:21 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA03259 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:44:18 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA03251 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:44:03 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:43:56 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <15809.9601092044@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: W3C To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:44:00 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <9601091515.aa06677@TBD2.ARL.MIL> from "Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB" at Jan 9, 96 03:15:06 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Would it be useful to put out the 0.92 version (labelled 0.92) as an internet draft? I suspect yes; technically, is that a problem? Once it becomes 1.0, PNG should become a Proposed Standard RFC just as HTML did. Or perhaps being a non-draft W3C technical report is an equivalent status and there will be no need for this ID, RFC charade? -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 9 17:47:37 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA16960 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 17:47:37 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA08142 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 17:47:28 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA08137 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 17:47:22 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA13776 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 18:45:14 -0500 To: PNG List Subject: Re: W3C In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:44:00 +0000 (GMT) <15809.9601092044@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 18:45:14 -0500 Message-ID: <13774.821231114@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List chris asks: > Or perhaps being a non-draft W3C technical report is an equivalent status > and there will be no need for this ID, RFC charade? Glenn and I have been operating on the assumption that we will need to prepare and submit an RFC for PNG. I think we should plan to do that as well as go through W3C; the more official we can make PNG look, the better. I dunno whether the IETF is likely to accept PNG as a standards-track document, however. Being a mere application format, not a network protocol, they may think that it should just be an informational RFC. regards, tom lane ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 10 03:36:59 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id DAA22344 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 03:36:58 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id DAA14788 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 03:35:33 -0600 Received: from www.one.net (www.one.net [206.112.192.120]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id DAA14783 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 03:35:29 -0600 Received: from [206.112.193.12] (port-1-2.access.one.net [206.112.193.12]) by www.one.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA17788 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 04:30:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199601100930.EAA17788@www.one.net> To: "png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu" Subject: Libpng 0.86 now available Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 04:37:31 -0500 From: GuyS X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List -- [ From: GuyS * EMC.Ver #2.5.03 ] -- Hello all. I just put libpng 0.86 into the /pub/incoming/png/ on swindle. This version should fix most if not all the problems I had with libpng 0.85, and also has improved documentation. This can go into the area that will be mirrored by ftp.uu.net. In a day or two, I'll post something to png-announce and put the library up on CompuServe. Those of you who are testing, if you have the spare time, check this one out , and report back any remaining problems. Glenn: I think I finally fixed the 16 bit problem. If I missed anything, I'm sure all of you will point it out. -Guy ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 10 09:32:25 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA25586 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 09:32:24 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA18060 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 09:31:55 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id JAA18055 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 09:31:51 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 15:22:57 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: PNG List Subject: Re: Libpng 0.86 now available Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601101522.aa20054@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List In reply to the message > Subject: Libpng 0.86 now available > Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 04:37:31 -0500 > From: GuyS > -- [ From: GuyS * EMC.Ver #2.5.03 ] -- > > Hello all. > > I just put libpng 0.86 into the /pub/incoming/png/ on swindle. This version > should fix most if not all the problems I had with libpng 0.85, and also has > improved documentation. This can go into the area that will be mirrored by > ftp.uu.net. In a day or two, I'll post something to png-announce and put > the library up on CompuServe. > > Those of you who are testing, if you have the spare time in between shoveling... >, check this one > out, and report back any remaining problems. Glenn: I think I finally fixed > the 16 bit problem. > Yes! Mosaic 2.7b2/libpng-0.86/zlib-0.95 works ok with 16-bit images containing a gAMA chunk (pond_rings, eight_stripes, chapel in http://tcg.arl.mil/www/glennrp/png/png_images/). ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 10 17:40:17 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA00813 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:40:10 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA24400 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:12:58 -0600 Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id QAA24395 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:12:53 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial142.phoenix.net [205.241.121.156]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA08665 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:12:44 -0600 Message-Id: <199601102212.QAA08665@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:12:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Libpng 0.86 now available Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Guy said: > Well, 0.86 still seems to have some problems. Ack. Should we wait a day or > two before putting it in the mirror directory? I'll post a 0.87 as soon as > I can (this weekend? Thursday night?) Ah lucky me. I just emailed you some changes for MSC medium and large model support. I'd appreciate it if you could get these changes into .87. If you need any help, let me know. Tim ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 10 17:41:41 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA00877 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:41:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA23993 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 15:38:14 -0600 Received: from relay1.oleane.net (Relay1.OLEANE.NET [194.2.1.1]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id PAA23986 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 15:38:03 -0600 Received: from atlas.gemse.fr ([3.45.12.3]) by relay1.oleane.net (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA13278; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 22:37:47 +0100 Received: from bird.gemse.fr by atlas.gemse.fr (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06629; Wed, 10 Jan 96 22:24:08 +0100 Received: by bird.gemse.fr (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA02613; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 22:29:52 +0100 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 22:29:52 +0100 Message-Id: <9601102129.AA02613@bird.gemse.fr> From: Jean-loup Gailly To: PNG List Cc: ghost@aladdin.com (L. Peter Deutsch), Mark Adler Subject: final specs for deflate and zlib (was: W3C) In-Reply-To: <9601091515.aa06677@TBD2.ARL.MIL> References: <9601091515.aa06677@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glenn writes: > Regarding issuance of PNG 1.0, recall that the spec now says: > > Items not yet completed in this working draft include: > > * Non-draft versions of the deflate and zlib specifications need to > be generated. No technical changes are believed needed in those documents. [...] > Is anything happening with regard to "non-draft" specs for deflate/zlib? The final versions are currently in ftp://quest.jpl.nasa.gov/zlib/ files deflate-1.2.doc and zlib-3.2.doc. Mark should move them to ftp://quest.jpl.nasa.gov/pub/doc/ and so they will automatically get mirrored into the reference home site for zlib documentation: ftp://ftp.uu.net/pub/archiving/zip/doc/ The only real difference with the draft versions is simpler sample code for crc and alder32. (Thanks to Tom Lane for the suggestion.) I didn't adopt exactly the crc code from the PNG spec, because I think that the convention used in zlib is more clear (there is no need for the caller to deal with the pre- and post-conditioning of crc values). Is it too late to change the sample code in the PNG spec? (Assuming of course that people agree with the idea of hiding the crc pre- and post-conditioning.) Many thanks to Peter Deutsch who wrote the gzip and deflate specifications. (I only made minor editorial updates.) Jean-loup ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 10 17:41:43 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA00885 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:41:42 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA22513 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:57:37 -0600 Received: from www.one.net (www.one.net [206.112.192.120]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA22508 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:57:33 -0600 Received: from [206.112.193.70] (port-2-30.access.one.net [206.112.193.70]) by www.one.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA26721 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 14:52:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199601101952.OAA26721@www.one.net> To: "png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Libpng 0.86 now available Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 14:59:30 -0500 From: GuyS X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List -- [ From: GuyS * EMC.Ver #2.5.03 ] -- Well, 0.86 still seems to have some problems. Ack. Should we wait a day or two before putting it in the mirror directory? I'll post a 0.87 as soon as I can (this weekend? Thursday night?) Also, I had a few minor changes that got left out of the zip file (the tar.gz file is fine), so I put a new zip file on swindle. It should be minor stuff, but if you could replace the old one, it would be appreciated. -Guy ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 10 18:05:57 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA01101 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:05:55 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA26242 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:05:50 -0600 Received: from llyene.jpl.nasa.gov (llyene.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.75.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA26237 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:05:44 -0600 Received: from quest.jpl.nasa.gov (quest.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.75.43]) by llyene.jpl.nasa.gov (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA13048; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:06:23 -0800 Received: by quest.jpl.nasa.gov (NX5.67f2/NX3.0S) id AA28749; Wed, 10 Jan 96 16:05:17 -0800 Message-Id: <9601110005.AA28749@quest.jpl.nasa.gov> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Mark Adler Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 16:05:15 -0800 To: PNG List , ghost@aladdin.com (L. Peter Deutsch) Subject: Re: final specs for deflate and zlib (was: W3C) References: <9601091515.aa06677@TBD2.ARL.MIL> <9601102129.AA02613@bird.gemse.fr> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >> Mark should move them Done. They should be mirrored tonight around 10:30pm to 11pm my time. mark ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 11 09:09:16 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA08660 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 09:09:15 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA05109 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 09:08:01 -0600 Received: from mercury.ukc.ac.uk (mercury.ukc.ac.uk [129.12.21.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id JAA05102 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 09:07:45 -0600 Received: from mint.ukc.ac.uk by mercury.ukc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:07:01 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.ukc.ac.uk) by mint.ukc.ac.uk (4.1/UKC-2.12) id AA03061; Thu, 11 Jan 96 15:06:53 GMT To: PNG List Cc: ksp@maxwell.nde.swri.edu (Keith S. Pickens) Subject: Announcement: pngmeta 1.3 - show PNG meta data as text, SOIF and HTML Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:06:53 +0000 Message-Id: <3060.821372813@mint.ukc.ac.uk> From: Dave Beckett Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I have just uploaded a new version of pngmeta 1.3 to /incoming/png on swrinde.nde.swri.edu as files pngmeta-1.3.tar.gz and pngmeta-1.3.README There are some some fixes and enhancements since the first version. The major changes are: Version 1.3 Tidied up HTML output. Tested with libpng 0.86 1.2 Added HTML output in
field

value

...
form. 1.1 Now outputs image meta data: format, colors (bitdepth), width, height and image type in the style of the GIF summariser for Harvest V1.4 Only outputs this for SOIF format. Prints modification time chunk (tIME) contents if present in RFC 1123 format, as suggested by PNG spec. Keith: Since it works with the latest released version of libpng (0.86), it should be go the public png area and other versions should be deleted. Dave ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 12 10:10:35 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA16744 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:10:34 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA28027 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:08:49 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id KAA28018 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:08:44 -0600 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 16:01:00 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: png-info@uunet.uu.net Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601121601.aa06415@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Does anyone know where messages addressed to "png-info@uunet.uu.net" go? To some subset of png-list? To godzilli? To /dev/null? ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 12 19:53:38 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA26635 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 19:53:36 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id TAA14028 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 19:53:43 -0600 Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [204.137.132.17]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id TAA14018 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 19:53:35 -0600 Received: by boutell.com id AA04395 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu); Sat, 13 Jan 1996 03:02:04 +0100 From: Thomas Boutell Message-Id: <199601130202.AA04395@boutell.com> Subject: png-info@uunet.uu.net To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 03:02:04 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Messages to the above address supposedly go to me. >From time to time, I receive one, and respond with a short PNG FAQ which guides people to swrinde, et cetera. If messages aren't getting through, this is news (and alarming). -T ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 00:52:11 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id AAA09688 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:52:11 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id AAA17168 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:52:32 -0600 Received: from www.one.net (www.one.net [206.112.192.120]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id AAA17163 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:52:27 -0600 Received: from [206.112.193.16] (port-1-6.access.one.net [206.112.193.16]) by www.one.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA20030 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 01:47:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199601160647.BAA20030@www.one.net> To: "png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu" Subject: Libpng 0.87 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 96 01:48:11 -0500 From: GuyS X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List -- [ From: GuyS * EMC.Ver #2.5.03 ] -- I've put libpng 0.87 up on swrindle. This should be the strongest libpng yet, with no bugs on most platforms (I believe I still have problems on some 64 bit platforms, but most of you should be fine). This includes the progressive reading, which seems to work fine. So all of you web browers authors should grab this and implement it. I'll be gone for the rest of the week, so if there are any errors, please post them to png-implement so others can fix their versions. I'll try to keep everyone updated about errors when I get back. I'll post a more official announcement on png-announce. For those of you who have smart email programs, the files are currently at: ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/incoming/png/lp087.zip ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/incoming/png/libpng-0.87.tar.gz ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/incoming/png/libpng-0.87.readme.txt They will soon be moved to: ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png/src/lp087.zip ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png/src/libpng-0.87.tar.gz ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png/src/libpng-0.87.readme.txt Enjoy, -Guy ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 03:39:43 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id DAA10851 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 03:39:42 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id BAA19487 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 01:55:23 -0600 Received: from enel.ucalgary.ca (enel.ucalgary.ca [136.159.101.50]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id BAA19477 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 01:55:15 -0600 Received: from munet-d.enel by enel.ucalgary.ca (SMI-8.6/ENEL-5) id AAA22427; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:54:35 -0700 From: adilger@enel.ucalgary.ca (Andreas Dilger) Message-Id: <199601160754.AAA22427@enel.ucalgary.ca> Subject: Re: Libpng 0.87 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:54:34 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <199601160647.BAA20030@www.one.net> from "GuyS" at Jan 16, 96 01:48:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Guy, a typo I noticed in libpng.txt, line 1160 or so, you refer to: png_set_compression_mem_level(png_ptr, level); twice, rather than the first time to: png_set_compression_level(png_ptr, level); In the makefile.elf that I sent you, there is a version number that needs updating with each release. I don't know if you have something that automatically updates the version numbers in the headers and such, but this file needs it as well. A minor thing, but is it possible to do a global replace on your source documents to replace tabs with 3 spaces? The source code and docs are all misformatted with the 8 space tabs on my system. Cheers, Andreas. -- Andreas Dilger University of Calgary \"If a man ate a pound of pasta and (403) 220-8792 Micronet Research Group \ a pound of antipasto, would they Dept of Electrical & Computer Engineering \ cancel out, leaving him still http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/ hungry?" -- Dogbert ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 08:45:37 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id IAA12871 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:45:37 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id IAA00269 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:46:05 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id IAA00264 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:46:01 -0600 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 96 14:38:48 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: PNG List Subject: Re: Libpng 0.87 Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601161438.aa18771@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > > A minor thing, but is it possible to do a global replace on your > source documents to replace tabs with 3 spaces? The source code and > docs are all misformatted with the 8 space tabs on my system. > > Cheers, Andreas. You want to "expand" tabs to every 4th tabstop rather than "replacing" tabs with 3 spaces.. On a Silicon Graphics machine running IRIX, you can use /bin/pr -e4 -t outfile On some other machines you can use /usr/ucb/expand -4 outfile ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 09:19:45 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA13346 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:19:44 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA00694 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:20:20 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA00689 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:20:15 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA16933 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:17:10 -0500 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Libpng 0.87 In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:54:34 -0700 (MST) <199601160754.AAA22427@enel.ucalgary.ca> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:17:10 -0500 Message-ID: <16931.821805430@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > A minor thing, but is it possible to do a global replace on your > source documents to replace tabs with 3 spaces? The source code and > docs are all misformatted with the 8 space tabs on my system. I should hope he'll leave this alone. Most of the world believes that tabs are 8 spaces. regards, tom lane ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 09:40:31 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA13986 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:40:30 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA01056 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:41:01 -0600 Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA01048 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:40:57 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial99.phoenix.net [199.3.234.134]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id JAA13953 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:40:15 -0600 Message-Id: <199601161540.JAA13953@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:40:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Libpng 0.87 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Tom said: > I should hope he'll leave this alone. Most of the world believes that > tabs are 8 spaces. Tabs are a nuisance in code that is shared by many people. At some point (no rush) it would be very nice to expand all tabs to spaces. Tim ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 09:41:07 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA14006 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:41:06 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA01082 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:41:42 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA01071 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:41:38 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA17502 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:38:42 -0500 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Libpng 0.87 In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:17:10 -0500 <16931.821805430@sss.pgh.pa.us> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:38:42 -0500 Message-ID: <17500.821806722@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I said: > I should hope he'll leave this alone. Most of the world believes that > tabs are 8 spaces. Sorry, that was poorly worded. Obviously I meant that the text files should be fixed to assume a more standard tab stop setting, ie, 8 spaces. In general, the three-space indentation convention used in libpng looks a little odd to me; two or four columns per nesting level seem more common rules. But I can live with it if Guy really likes it. Note to Guy: if you don't have appropriate tools, fixing all this would take about five seconds per file in emacs. Let me know... regards, tom lane ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 09:57:01 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA14277 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:57:00 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA01332 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:57:25 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id JAA01326 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:57:21 -0600 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 96 15:51:52 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: PNG List Subject: Re: Libpng 0.87 Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601161551.aa25280@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List In reply to the message > Subject: Re: Libpng 0.87 > Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:17:10 -0500 > Message-ID: <16931.821805430@sss.pgh.pa.us> > From: Tom Lane > > A minor thing, but is it possible to do a global replace on your > > source documents to replace tabs with 3 spaces? The source code and > > docs are all misformatted with the 8 space tabs on my system. > > I should hope he'll leave this alone. Most of the world believes that > tabs are 8 spaces. > > regards, tom lane I should hope he doesn't leave it alone. It is presently formatted with an assumption that tabs are 3 spaces. It looks good if you expand tabs using tabstop increment = 3 (not 4 as I suggested earlier...). more libpng.txt looks horrible, but pr -e3 -t libpng.txt | more looks fine. Best solution is not to use tabs at all, but to expand the source documents with pr -e3 -t old.libpng.txt > new.libpng.txt ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 10:12:13 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA14545 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:12:12 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA01500 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:12:21 -0600 Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id KAA01495 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:12:16 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial35.phoenix.net [199.3.234.70]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA19025 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:11:34 -0600 Message-Id: <199601161611.KAA19025@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:11:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Tabs and indenting Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List My vote is to have Guy use whatever indenting and coding style he wants (the way it is now indenting by 3 is fine by me.) But expanding all tabs to spaces using the tab settings Guy assumes (apparently 3) as Andreas suggests is a very very good idea. I have participated in several group coding projects and everyone's editor seems to handle tabs differently, which creates a mess. Having no tabs makes it a lot easier to send contributions to Guy that don't have the formatting messed up. Tim ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 11:10:17 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA15613 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:10:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA02478 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:10:30 -0600 Received: from llyene.jpl.nasa.gov (llyene.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.75.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id LAA02472 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:10:20 -0600 Received: from quest.jpl.nasa.gov (quest.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.75.43]) by llyene.jpl.nasa.gov (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id JAA25422 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:10:23 -0800 Received: by quest.jpl.nasa.gov (NX5.67f2/NX3.0S) id AA25735; Tue, 16 Jan 96 09:09:17 -0800 Message-Id: <9601161709.AA25735@quest.jpl.nasa.gov> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Mark Adler Date: Tue, 16 Jan 96 09:09:15 -0800 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Libpng 0.87 References: <199601160754.AAA22427@enel.ucalgary.ca> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List In Info-ZIP we have a rule: "No feelthy stinking tabs". The only exception is for Makefiles, where they are required. mark ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 12:44:24 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA17278 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:44:23 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id MAA04074 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:44:46 -0600 Received: from newton.ncsa.uiuc.edu (newton.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.2.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id MAA04069 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:44:42 -0600 Received: from void.ncsa.uiuc.edu (void.ncsa.uiuc.edu [141.142.103.20]) by newton.ncsa.uiuc.edu (8.6.11/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA28687 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:44:00 -0600 Received: by void.ncsa.uiuc.edu (4.1/NCSA-4.1) id AA14969; Tue, 16 Jan 96 12:42:32 CST From: jmarsh@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Jason Marshall) Message-Id: <9601161842.AA14969@void.ncsa.uiuc.edu> Subject: Re: Libpng 0.87 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:42:31 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199601160647.BAA20030@www.one.net> from "GuyS" at Jan 16, 96 01:48:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I noticed that while there is a method to specify a filler byte in RGB images as being before or after the color information, there appears to be no equivalent for specifying whether the alpha channel (which may correspond to that filler byte) leads or follows the color components. Now, I can add a transform for RGBA files to rearrange this, but is there any reason set_filler doesn't imply such a transform? -Jason Marshall ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 13:08:08 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA17650 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:08:07 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA03034 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:41:50 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id LAA03029 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:41:45 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id LAA04748; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:35:54 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id LAA08809; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:40:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:40:29 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601161740.LAA08809@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: davidm@USIT.NET Subject: Re: conversions Cc: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > I'm looking to do a high speed exporting conversions from an IBM > Image 400 Plus (Images and indexes) into another imaging system . Do > you have anything that would be of interest to me. I have never heard of that system, so I'm afraid I can't be of any help. I've listed everything of which I have any knowledge in the PNG applications pages. -- Greg Roelofs "Name an animal that's small and fuzzy." "Mold." newt@uchicago.edu or http://quest.jpl.nasa.gov/Info-ZIP/people/greg/ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 13:12:27 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA17692 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:12:25 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA04736 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:13:02 -0600 Received: from iguana.reptiles.org (iguana.reptiles.org [198.96.117.130]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id NAA04728 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:12:56 -0600 Received: by iguana.reptiles.org (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.5) id ; Tue, 16 Jan 96 14:11:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 96 14:11:01 -0500 (EST) From: smar@reptiles.org (Smarasderagd) To: bug-chimera@cs.unlv.edu Subject: imake and chimera and linux, augh Cc: orestz@eskimo.com, png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List This morning I had an experience which gave me cause to reflect on the use of imake, specifically under XFree86's flavour of X11R6 under Linux. I was trying out my implementation of PNG for Chimera and ran into a mysterious problem. In the debugger, the "mode" element of the png_struct structure was wrong, but, oddly, only when I looked at it while in the png code; it was OK when I looked at in the Chimera code. Further investigation revealed that libpng and Chimera disagreed on the size of png_struct, in particular, the size of the "jmpbuf" element, which appeared just before "mode"... When the red mist had cleared from my eyes, I was able to determine that in my installation of XFree86 (3.1.1) the imake rules for Linux supply, among other flags: -D_POSIX_SOURCE -D_BSD_SOURCE -D_GNU_SOURCE which causes gcc on my machine (2.6.2) to include some extra stuff in the declaration for jmp_buf. I am extremely dubious about the flags above as a standard compilation environment for X, but I don't know what constraints the XFree86 person for Linux has to work under. In any case, those programming with libpng on Linux under X should be aware of this, as it may cause similar problems. ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 14:00:20 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA18557 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:00:20 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA05660 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:00:47 -0600 Received: from nss2.CC.Lehigh.EDU (nss2.CC.Lehigh.EDU [128.180.1.26]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA05655 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:00:44 -0600 Received: from ns2-1.CC.Lehigh.EDU (root@ns2-1.CC.Lehigh.EDU [128.180.1.33]) by nss2.CC.Lehigh.EDU (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA87108 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:00:00 -0500 Received: (from fjw2@localhost) by ns2-1.CC.Lehigh.EDU (8.7/8.7) id OAA24727; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:58:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199601161958.OAA24727@ns2-1.CC.Lehigh.EDU> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:58:21 EST From: fjw2@lehigh.edu (Frank J. T. Wojcik) X-Mailer: SENDM [Version 2.0.16] Subject: Re: Tabs and indenting To: PNG List Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >My vote is to have Guy use whatever indenting and coding style he >wants (the way it is now indenting by 3 is fine by me.) Well, actually, I'm probably the one responsible for the tab-damage. I do plan to go through libpng.txt at least one more time to integrate the changes from 0.81-0.86, and will change tabs->spaces. Sorry. ----- Frank J. T. Wojcik Linux - the choice http://www.lehigh.edu/~fjw2/fjw2.html of a GNU generation... "Life is the crummiest book I ever read, there isn't a hook. Just a lot of cheap shots, pictures to shock, and characters an amateur would never dream up." - Bad Religion ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 14:45:16 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA19771 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:45:15 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA06719 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:45:53 -0600 Received: from enel.ucalgary.ca (enel.ucalgary.ca [136.159.101.50]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA06714 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:45:48 -0600 Received: from munet-d.enel by enel.ucalgary.ca (SMI-8.6/ENEL-5) id NAA25007; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:45:05 -0700 From: adilger@enel.ucalgary.ca (Andreas Dilger) Message-Id: <199601162045.NAA25007@enel.ucalgary.ca> Subject: Re: Tabs and indenting To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:45:04 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <199601161958.OAA24727@ns2-1.CC.Lehigh.EDU> from "Frank J. T. Wojcik" at Jan 16, 96 02:58:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Frank writes: > Well, actually, I'm probably the one responsible for the tab-damage. I do plan > to go through libpng.txt at least one more time to integrate the changes from > 0.81-0.86, and will change tabs->spaces. Sorry. Actually, there are mixed tabs and spaces in all of the source files. I don't really care what the indenting size is, but it should be consistent. Of course, Guy is not to blame, because it looks fine on his editor. My apologies as well, since I meant to send that note directly to Guy rather than the PNG list (sheepish grin). At least we know that people are still alive out there, since it's been pretty quiet lately... Just a quick note about the PNG WWW site, the applications from the PNG group page is falling behind a little, regarding up-to-date versions of the code, notably libpng is still saying ver 0.81. Cheers, Andreas. -- Andreas Dilger University of Calgary \"If a man ate a pound of pasta and (403) 220-8792 Micronet Research Group \ a pound of antipasto, would they Dept of Electrical & Computer Engineering \ cancel out, leaving him still http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/ hungry?" -- Dogbert ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 16 14:46:27 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA19790 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:46:25 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA05425 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:47:00 -0600 Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA05419 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:46:53 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial13.phoenix.net [199.3.234.44]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA23190 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:46:11 -0600 Message-Id: <199601161946.NAA23190@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:46:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: "Compuserve" PNG apps Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Check out Stroud's Consumate Winsock apps page on graphics software. (Vueprint has slipped to 4th place in the ratings:-)) The top three apps all support PNG (including Group 42's Webimage); none of the lower rated apps support PNG. (Lest I mislead anybody, Vueprint gets a good review, it's just lower than the PNG-supporting apps.) Check out http://cwsapps.texas.net/95image.htm However, the review for Thumbs Plus mentions "Compuserve's PNG" format. Turn's out Forrest Stroud lifted that from the Thumbs Plus blurb. I have emailed both Forrest and the Thumb's Plus author (very politely) explaining that this is incorrect and asking them to make an edit. Thumbs Plus's page is at http://www.cerious.com I suggest that Greg add Thumbs Plus to his page. Let's not all email these folks with angry messages about "Compuserve PNG" (not that anyone here would ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 12:13:09 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id MAA01311 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 12:11:45 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id MAA01306 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 12:11:41 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id MAA15726 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 12:05:46 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id MAA29010 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 12:10:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 12:10:50 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601171810.MAA29010@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Tabs and indenting Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Andreas writes: > Just a quick note about the PNG WWW site, the applications from the PNG > group page is falling behind a little, regarding up-to-date versions of > the code, notably libpng is still saying ver 0.81. 0.86 had not been moved last time I checked, and then 0.87 appeared pretty quickly after that... Anyway, the upshot is that I haven't lost track of the new code (pnmtopng, too), but I also haven't had time to get things updated yet. High winds knocked out our power last night, just to top it all off. Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 17 13:56:44 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA01337 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:56:44 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA03709 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:57:21 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA03704 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:57:15 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id NAA23012 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:51:13 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id NAA15880 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:56:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:56:17 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601171956.NAA15880@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: "Compuserve" PNG apps Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Check out Stroud's Consumate Winsock apps page on graphics software. > (Vueprint has slipped to 4th place in the ratings:-)) The top three > apps all support PNG (including Group 42's Webimage); none of the > lower rated apps support PNG. (Lest I mislead anybody, Vueprint gets > a good review, it's just lower than the PNG-supporting apps.) Looks like 3rd place to me; only PSP and WebImage are above it. PSP doesn't mention anything about PNG support, btw, something that I will endeavour to correct. I don't see any reference to "thumbs" on either of the image pages. > I suggest that Greg add Thumbs Plus to his page. Will do. Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 17 16:50:59 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA08294 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:50:57 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA07405 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:51:12 -0600 Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id QAA07400 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:51:07 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial114.phoenix.net [199.3.234.149]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA18225 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:34:30 -0600 Message-Id: <199601172234.QAA18225@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:34:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: "Compuserve" PNG apps Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Looks like 3rd place to me; only PSP and WebImage are above it. PSP > doesn't mention anything about PNG support, btw, something that I will > endeavour to correct. Thumbs plus (for Win 95) is four and a half stars, so Hamrick's Vueprint is indeed in fourth place on Stroud's Win 95 page. Perhaps you were looking on the 16-bit apps page? Stroud has separate sections for Win95. I have tested PSP and it does indeed support PNG. > I don't see any reference to "thumbs" on either of the image pages. > > > I suggest that Greg add Thumbs Plus to his page. > > Will do. You might wait. I downloaded Thumbs plus beta 3 for Win95, and while there was a DLL with "PNG" in the name, I couldn't find any reference to PNG in the docs nor could I load a PNG file. BTW Stroud responded to my email and editted the word "Compuserve" out of his review of Thumbs Plus. The Cerious software web page still has not yet fixed their web page. Tim ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 17 17:13:47 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA08851 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:13:47 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA07840 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:14:27 -0600 Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA07830 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:14:19 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial32.phoenix.net [199.3.234.67]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id RAA23167 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:00:15 -0600 Message-Id: <199601172300.RAA23167@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:00:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: "Compuserve" PNG apps Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I said that I couldn't get Thumbs Plus to support PNG. I spoke too soon. Thumbs Plus allows you to configure what file formats the file picker will list. The default is to not list PNG. Once the program is configured to include PNG files, it works fine. I loaded several PNG files successfully. Greg, you can go ahead and add Thumb's Plus to your Web page. Make sure it is only the 3.0 beta 3 version that supports PNG. Tim ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 17 17:48:42 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA09105 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:48:42 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA08475 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:49:16 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA08470 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:49:12 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id RAA09850 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:43:16 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id RAA24076 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:48:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:48:17 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601172348.RAA24076@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: "Compuserve" PNG apps Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Thumbs plus (for Win 95) is four and a half stars, so Hamrick's > Vueprint is indeed in fourth place on Stroud's Win 95 page. Perhaps > you were looking on the 16-bit apps page? Stroud has separate > sections for Win95. No, the version of the page the server gave me this morning was 8 Jan 96, and it didn't have Thumbs Plus. I just now did a reload and got the 16 Jan 96 version; it reflects the order you reported. I don't know why I got the old one the first time around unless he was changing the filename at the time--the URL you originally gave was missing the trailing "l". > I have tested PSP and it does indeed support PNG. That's what I thought. I sent JASC a message asking them to fix their web page. > BTW Stroud responded to my email and editted the word "Compuserve" > out of his review of Thumbs Plus. He still calls it "PiNG," however. Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 17 17:58:38 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA09256 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:58:37 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA08663 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:59:10 -0600 Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [198.4.7.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA08658 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:59:07 -0600 Received: by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA24049; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:58:19 -0500 Date: 17 Jan 96 18:56:58 EST From: Owen Mortensen To: ngf Subject: Kudos for the PNG spec Message-ID: Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List A coworker of mine forwarded this snippet from the WinSock-2 mailing list that I thought might be of interest to the group. All that hard work is starting to pay-off!! Owen //QUOTE// >|Another good thing we could do is put a lot of our collective >|good advice in one place in the spec. What would everyone say >|to adding Keith Moore's wonderful Lame List to the WinSock 2 >|spec? Yes, I'm serious. :-) > >Careful Bob - too much good advice, and new developers won't >need to buy your book! :-) > >(seriously, the more 'good advice' we can put in the spec - the >one thing we can best hope every winsock developer will read - >the less our collective support effort might have to be. I'm >all for it.) Speaking as someone who has to read a lot of these specs, although not necessarily having to *program* very much, I find any kind of informal notes, advice, or rationale behind the spec choices a great help. The details are fine for folks spending their whole lives on the stuff, but I find that more and more I'm having to dip into a wider variety of areas. The PNG graphics spec was the most recent, and that has quite a good "why we did what we did" section. So I'm in agreement with Paul's comment. David Taylor GEC-Marconi Edinburgh //END QUOTE// ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 17 18:03:14 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA09298 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:03:14 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA08791 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:03:52 -0600 Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [198.4.9.8]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA08784 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:03:48 -0600 Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA18259; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:02:58 -0500 Date: 17 Jan 96 19:02:29 EST From: Owen Mortensen To: ngf , "\"Tim Wegner\"" Subject: Re: "Compuserve" PNG apps Message-ID: Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Tim Wegner wrote: >However, the review for Thumbs Plus mentions "Compuserve's PNG" >format. Turn's out Forrest Stroud lifted that from the Thumbs Plus >blurb. I have emailed both Forrest and the Thumb's Plus author (very >politely) explaining that this is incorrect and asking them to make >an edit. If they need to confirm that PNG does not belong to CompuServe, they can call our PR department. I think I've finally gotten them straight on that fact ;) Owen ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 17 18:09:46 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA09326 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:09:46 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA08968 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:10:25 -0600 Received: from llyene.jpl.nasa.gov (llyene.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.75.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA08962 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:10:19 -0600 Received: from quest.jpl.nasa.gov (quest.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.75.43]) by llyene.jpl.nasa.gov (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA26595; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:09:18 -0800 Received: by quest.jpl.nasa.gov (NX5.67f2/NX3.0S) id AA19878; Wed, 17 Jan 96 16:08:11 -0800 Message-Id: <9601180008.AA19878@quest.jpl.nasa.gov> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Mark Adler Date: Wed, 17 Jan 96 16:08:09 -0800 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu, zip-bugs@wkuvx1.wku.edu Subject: travel References: <199601172348.RAA24076@ellis.uchicago.edu> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List To whom it may concern, I'll be on travel from the 18th to the 29th of this month, returning on the 30th. If quest has an unrecoverable problem during that time, it will just have to wait until I get back. mark ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 17 19:09:41 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA09733 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:09:39 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id TAA10589 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:10:06 -0600 Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id TAA10584 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:10:01 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial112.phoenix.net [199.3.234.147]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id SAA16472 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:58:02 -0600 Message-Id: <199601180058.SAA16472@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:58:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: "Compuserve" PNG apps Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > > BTW Stroud responded to my email and editted the word "Compuserve" > > out of his review of Thumbs Plus. > > He still calls it "PiNG," however. This was also lifted from Cerious software, so they are the ones to mention it to. Unfortunately I didn't mention this to either Stroud or Cerious software. Tim ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 18 06:14:29 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id GAA13039 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 06:14:29 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id GAA24244 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 06:12:12 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id GAA24234 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 06:12:01 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:10:50 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <12317.9601181210@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: "Compuserve" PNG apps To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:10:39 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199601172300.RAA23167@phoenix.net> from "Tim Wegner" at Jan 17, 96 05:00:14 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Tim Wegner said: > I said that I couldn't get Thumbs Plus to support PNG. I spoke too > soon. Thumbs Plus allows you to configure what file formats the file > picker will list. The default is to not list PNG. Once the program is > configured to include PNG files, it works fine. I loaded several PNG > files successfully. Hmm... you had a reason to persevere. Will casual users bother? Perhaps you could ask the author to alter the default setting in the next release. It would be a real shame if folk had a PNG-enabled program but did not realise. -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 18 13:11:21 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA17940 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:11:19 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA04029 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:11:22 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id NAA04023 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:11:18 -0600 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 19:10:06 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Zlib and Deflate documentation Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601181910.aa09919@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I have put the zlib and deflate documentation into HTML and Internet Draft format. They are in swrinde's incoming directory. Keith, please move the files deflate-1.2-id.html deflate-1.2-id.txt zlib-3.2-id.html zlib-3.2-id.txt to png-group/documents. After a suitable review period (a week or so?) they can be moved to png/documents. ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 18 13:38:24 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA18300 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:38:22 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA04683 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:39:07 -0600 Received: from maxwell.nde.swri.edu (maxwell.nde.swri.edu [129.162.171.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA04674 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:39:03 -0600 Received: (from ksp@localhost) by maxwell.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id NAA08856 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:38:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601181938.NAA08856@maxwell.nde.swri.edu> From: ksp@maxwell.nde.swri.edu (Keith S. Pickens) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:38:10 -0600 In-Reply-To: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB "Zlib and Deflate documentation" (Jan 18, 7:10pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: PNG List Subject: Re: Zlib and Deflate documentation Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List } After a suitable review period (a week or so?) } they can be moved to png/documents. Let me know when they have aged enough. -keith ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 18 16:09:31 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA21706 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:09:31 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA09002 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:09:47 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id QAA08993 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:09:42 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id QAA00689 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:03:41 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id QAA22329 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:08:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:08:39 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601182208.QAA22329@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Zlib and Deflate documentation Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >} After a suitable review period (a week or so?) >} they can be moved to png/documents. > Let me know when they have aged enough. Why should there be any review period? The authors already made them publicly available a week ago elsewhere (and I've updated the pngmisc.html page, too); there's no reason why we shouldn't do the same at the SwRI site. While we're at it, would someone be willing to put current copies of the PNG spec itself onto SwRI? It looks kind of bad still to have a version that's six months out of date. :-) Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Jan 18 16:45:30 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA22456 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:45:29 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA10339 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:46:16 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id QAA10333 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:46:12 -0600 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 22:44:28 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: PNG List Subject: Re: Zlib and Deflate documentation Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601182244.aa20693@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List In reply to the message > Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:08:39 -0600 (CST) > From: Cave Newt > Subject: Re: Zlib and Deflate documentation [glennrp:] > >} After a suitable review period (a week or so?) > >} they can be moved to png/documents. > [Keith:] > > Let me know when they have aged enough. > [Greg:] > Why should there be any review period? The authors already made > them publicly available a week ago elsewhere (and I've updated > the pngmisc.html page, too); there's no reason why we shouldn't > do the same at the SwRI site. I reformatted and reorganized in accordance with RFC guidelines. Seemed like a good idea to leave a few days for people to take a look. There's a question of where to go next with them. Directly to the IETF, as Internet Drafts, or through W3C first? Try to push them through the RFC Standards Track, or submit them as "Informational RFCs"? ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 19 04:02:59 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id EAA26504 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 04:02:53 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id EAA26024 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 04:03:32 -0600 Received: from relay1.oleane.net (Relay1.OLEANE.NET [194.2.1.1]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id EAA26015 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 04:03:25 -0600 Received: from atlas.gemse.fr ([3.45.12.3]) by relay1.oleane.net (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA10993 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:02:08 +0100 Received: from bird.gemse.fr by atlas.gemse.fr (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12013; Fri, 19 Jan 96 10:48:44 +0100 Received: by bird.gemse.fr (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA06804; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:55:03 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:55:03 +0100 Message-Id: <9601190955.AA06804@bird.gemse.fr> From: Jean-loup Gailly To: PNG List Subject: Re: Zlib and Deflate documentation In-Reply-To: <199601182208.QAA22329@ellis.uchicago.edu> References: <199601182208.QAA22329@ellis.uchicago.edu> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg writes: > Why should there be any review period? The authors already made > them publicly available a week ago elsewhere (and I've updated > the pngmisc.html page, too); there's no reason why we shouldn't > do the same at the SwRI site. It was my suggestion to ask for comments from this group. Glenn made a good job at editing the previous versions, and so I thought it was worth making a final check. There are no technical changes, just editorial changes, but even such changes are worth checking. Jean-loup ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 19 05:24:00 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id FAA27041 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 05:23:59 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id FAA26919 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 05:24:49 -0600 Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id FAA26914 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 05:24:45 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial5.phoenix.net [199.3.234.36]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id FAA18481 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 05:23:48 -0600 Message-Id: <199601191123.FAA18481@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 05:23:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: PNG Web browser Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List There's another Web browser now that supports PNG. ftp://ftp.rz.uni-ulm.de/pub/systems/UdiWWW/udiw1e07.exe Here's an excerpt from Stroud's review (Review is at: http://www.texas.net/cwsapps/www.html#udiwww) UdiWWW is an easy to use freeware web browser available in both 16 and 32-bit versions. Although it does lack the speed and advanced features of browsers like Netscape and Internet Explorer, it is still a surprisingly strong browser and is not too terribly far behind the leaders. Features currently implemented in the browser include full tables, mailto, and HTML 3 support; global font sizing capability; extensive configuration settings; PNG and progressive JPEG image support; frames and other Netscape extensions; caching; an advanced bookmark management utility; support for proxies and much more. ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 19 07:14:14 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id HAA27819 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 07:14:14 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id HAA27787 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 07:14:46 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id HAA27782 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 07:14:25 -0600 Received: from afs.mcc.ac.uk (actually cguhpb.cgu.mcc.ac.uk) by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:12:43 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <2666.9601191312@afs.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: PNG Web browser To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:12:32 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199601191123.FAA18481@phoenix.net> from "Tim Wegner" at Jan 19, 96 05:23:44 am Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > > There's another Web browser now that supports PNG. > > ftp://ftp.rz.uni-ulm.de/pub/systems/UdiWWW/udiw1e07.exe > A little searching reveals that it has supported PNG since 29 Sept 95 not that it seems to have had much announcement. See: http://www.uni-ulm.de/~richter/udiwww/new.htm -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 19 10:04:29 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA29370 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:04:27 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA29336 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:04:39 -0600 Received: from milpitas.adaptec.com (milpitas.adaptec.com [162.62.21.1]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id KAA29331 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:04:35 -0600 From: WDavid@corp.adaptec.com Received: from corpmail.adaptec.com ([162.62.105.19]) by milpitas.adaptec.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05839; Fri, 19 Jan 96 08:01:55 PST Received: from mentor.adaptec.com by corpmail.adaptec.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27517; Fri, 19 Jan 96 08:00:43 PST X-Nvlenv-01Date-Transferred: 19-Jan-1996 8:05:59 -0500; at Mentor.Adaptec X-Nvlenv-01Date-Posted: 19-Jan-1996 08:02:38 -0500; at Niobe.Adaptec Date: 19 Jan 96 08:02:00 EST To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: fwd: Re: your mail Message-Id: <728CFF5001682C79@-SMF-> In-Reply-To: <199601182243.AA13546@boutell.com> References: <199601182243.AA13546@boutell.com> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Form: Forward Header: Adaptec Company Confidential Text: (10 lines follow) Hi folks. The following is a request Thomas Boutell suggested I send to you. Could someone give me an answer on this? Thanks in advance. Best regards, David Schwaderer *==========================* W. David Schwaderer - Senior Digital Media Engineer - Dept. 10-710 Adaptec Inc.; 691 South Milpitas Boulevard; Milpitas, CA 95035; USA (408)-945-8600 x3475 (Voice) (408)-945-6736 (FAX) Original text: (33 lines follow) >From boutell@boutell.com (Thomas Boutell), on 1/18/96 14:43: To: Dave Schwaderer@North America.Adaptec > I am writing an Addison Wesley Book on Digital Image Processing. It will > include a CD-ROM for VESA BIOS support, 13,000 lines of C source code, > executables, and images. The CD-ROM has lots of extra space on it. I > would like to help push PNG and can probably get some text into the book > about it... > > What PNG material/code/images can I put on it? Is this correct? Do I need > any type copyright release? (The PNG10 spec says no.) Any strings > attached? > > Best regards, > David Schwaderer This is a lovely opportunity. I am not involved with PNG much from day to day of late, and I wouldn't want to recommend anything but the latest draft of the spec, so I encourage you to repeat this message to the following address: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu And ask for the latest materials. You can definitely include the PNG specification and the PNG reference library with your book. Write to that address to give the various maintainers and authors a chance to say "wait, whoa, let me give you this lovely debugged version!" -T Use Proportional Font: true Previous From: boutell@boutell.com (Thomas Boutell) Previous To: Dave Schwaderer@North America.Adaptec Forwarded: true ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 19 10:26:29 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA00014 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:26:28 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA29745 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:27:13 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id KAA29739 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:27:09 -0600 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 16:23:56 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: "L. Peter Deutsch" , png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Links in Zlib and Deflate docs Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601191623.aa08165@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List The zlib document seems not to give any pointer to the source code. Don't you think it should? The deflate document points to zlib "documents and sources" on ftp.uu.net, but I can only find the "documents". Shouldn't there be a /pub/archiving/zip/src directory on ftp.uu.net, containing all of the info-zip sources (zlib, gzip, deflate)?? One of the links in deflate-1.2-id.html is wrong (should be .../pub/archiving/zip/docs/zlib* instead of .../pub/archiving/zip/zlib*). I will fix that, and also make the external references in the zlib-3.2-id.html "clickable"). ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 19 11:51:48 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA02223 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:51:47 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA01544 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:52:18 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id LAA01539 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:52:13 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id LAA08698 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:46:08 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id LAA08966 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:50:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:50:53 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601191750.LAA08966@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Zlib and Deflate documentation Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List me: > Why should there be any review period? Glenn: > I reformatted and reorganized in accordance with RFC guidelines. > Seemed like a good idea to leave a few days for people to take > a look. Jean-loup: > It was my suggestion to ask for comments from this group. Glenn > made a good job at editing the previous versions, and so I thought > it was worth making a final check. There are no technical changes, > just editorial changes, but even such changes are worth checking. Good points, I agree, please ignore my earlier comment (except for the one about putting PNGspec 0.92 on swrinde). Glenn: > The zlib document seems not to give any pointer to the source code. > Don't you think it should? I agree. > Shouldn't there be a /pub/archiving/zip/src directory on ftp.uu.net, > containing all of the info-zip sources (zlib, gzip, deflate)?? Sources are in the /pub/archiving/zip directory. deflate is in zlib. zlib *should* be on ftp.uu.net, but I think Jean-loup and/or Mark mumbled something about "beta" last time I asked. Given the already widespread usage and the fact that it's publicly available elsewhere on ftp.uu.net, I still think zlib should be available in the Info-ZIP area, too. Of course, that won't happen until the end of the month at the earliest... > One of the links in deflate-1.2-id.html is wrong (should be > .../pub/archiving/zip/docs/zlib* instead of .../pub/archiving/zip/zlib*). I think you mean /pub/archiving/zip/doc/zlib* Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 19 13:21:20 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA02904 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:21:19 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA02981 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:20:47 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id NAA02976 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:20:42 -0600 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 19:15:44 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: PNG List Subject: Re: Zlib and Deflate documentation Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601191915.aa15894@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Glenn: > > > Shouldn't there be a /pub/archiving/zip/src directory on ftp.uu.net, > > containing all of the info-zip sources (zlib, gzip, deflate)?? Greg: > Sources are in the /pub/archiving/zip directory. deflate is in zlib. > zlib *should* be on ftp.uu.net, but I think Jean-loup and/or Mark > mumbled something about "beta" last time I asked. Given the already > widespread usage and the fact that it's publicly available elsewhere > on ftp.uu.net, I still think zlib should be available in the Info-ZIP > area, too. Of course, that won't happen until the end of the month > at the earliest... Not there earlier today... (no /pub/archiving/zip/zlib directory) But if that is where the sources are supposed to be, then I'll make links to that directory in the docs: In zlib:

Source code

Source code for a C language implementation of a 'zlib' compliant library is available at ftp.uu.net:/pub/archiving/zip/zlib/zlib*. In deflate:

Source code

Source code for a C language implementation of a 'deflate' compliant compressor is available as a subroutine 'deflate.c' within the zlib source at ftp.uu.net:/pub/archiving/zip/zlib/zlib*. Greg: > I think you mean /pub/archiving/zip/doc/zlib* Yup. I have it right in the doc, but wrong in my msg to png-list. ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 19 13:30:14 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA03076 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:30:13 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA03135 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:30:57 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id NAA03129 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:30:49 -0600 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 19:22:54 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: "L. Peter Deutsch" cc: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Links in Zlib and Deflate docs Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601191922.aa18112@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > > In case I didn't mention it before, thanks for your editorial cleanup work. > It really makes a difference in the perceived quality of the result. > > L. Peter Deutsch | Aladdin Enterprises :::: ghost@aladdin You're welcome. I am hoping that people will also perceive it as a firm foundation under PNG. ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 19 13:53:45 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA03316 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:53:43 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA03644 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:54:26 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA03638 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:54:22 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id NAA17372 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:48:17 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id NAA29271 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:53:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:53:00 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601191953.NAA29271@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Zlib and Deflate documentation Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >> Sources are in the /pub/archiving/zip directory. deflate is in zlib. > Not there earlier today... (no /pub/archiving/zip/zlib directory) > But if that is where the sources are supposed to be, then I'll make > links to that directory in the docs: No, not directories! deflate is IN zlib, as you noted farther down. And zlib.tar.gz should be in the /pub/archiving/zip/ directory, I think, unless Mark (Jean-loup?) thinks otherwise. (Maybe it's time to re- arrange the entire layout, but I'm not going to do it.) Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 19 14:15:02 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA03805 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:15:02 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA04334 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:15:40 -0600 Received: from gw.home.vix.com (gw.home.vix.com [192.5.5.1]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA04329 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:15:32 -0600 Received: by gw.home.vix.com id AA13202; Fri, 19 Jan 96 09:29:31 -0800 X-Btw: vix.com is also gw.home.vix.com and vixie.sf.ca.us Received: by aladdin.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0tdLiv-0000cLC; Fri, 19 Jan 96 10:39 PST Message-Id: Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 10:39 PST From: ghost@aladdin.com (L. Peter Deutsch) To: glennrp@ARL.MIL Cc: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu In-Reply-To: <9601191623.aa08165@TBD2.ARL.MIL> (message from Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB on Fri, 19 Jan 96 16:23:56 GMT) Subject: Re: Links in Zlib and Deflate docs Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > The zlib document seems not to give any pointer to the source code. > Don't you think it should? Yes, feel free to add one. > The deflate document points to zlib "documents and sources" on > ftp.uu.net, but I can only find the "documents". Feel free to add an appropriate link. > Shouldn't there be a /pub/archiving/zip/src directory on ftp.uu.net, > containing all of the info-zip sources (zlib, gzip, deflate)?? This is really up to the authors of these packages. I just wrote the doc. > One of the links in deflate-1.2-id.html is wrong (should be > .../pub/archiving/zip/docs/zlib* instead of .../pub/archiving/zip/zlib*). > I will fix that, and also make the external references in the > zlib-3.2-id.html "clickable"). Sounds good to me. In case I didn't mention it before, thanks for your editorial cleanup work. It really makes a difference in the perceived quality of the result. L. Peter Deutsch | Aladdin Enterprises :::: ghost@aladdin.com 203 Santa Margarita Ave. | & Artifex Software Inc. :: tech@arsoft.com Menlo Park, CA 94025 | tel. +1-415-322-0103 (AM only) fax +1-415-322-1734 "Implementation is the sincerest form of flattery." ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 19 14:32:27 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA04178 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:32:26 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA04766 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:31:24 -0600 Received: from nss2.CC.Lehigh.EDU (nss2.CC.Lehigh.EDU [128.180.1.26]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA04752 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:30:57 -0600 Received: from ns3-1.CC.Lehigh.EDU (root@ns3-1.CC.Lehigh.EDU [128.180.1.41]) by nss2.CC.Lehigh.EDU (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA36916 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:29:47 -0500 Received: (from fjw2@localhost) by ns3-1.CC.Lehigh.EDU (8.7/8.7) id PAA19840; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:25:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199601192025.PAA19840@ns3-1.CC.Lehigh.EDU> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:25:24 EST From: fjw2@lehigh.edu (Frank J. T. Wojcik) X-Mailer: SENDM [Version 2.0.16] Subject: png2png / pngopt started yet? To: PNG List Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I'm just wondering if anyone has made progress on an agressive png optimizer. If so, could you please inform me? Otherwise, I'll start writing one. If I do that, I'll entertain suggestions/wanted features by email. (fjw2@lehigh.edu) ----- Frank J. T. Wojcik Linux - the choice of a GNU generation... "Life is the crummiest book I ever read, there isn't a hook. Just a lot of cheap shots, pictures to shock, and characters an amateur would never dream up." - Bad Religion ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 22 19:29:15 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA03970 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 19:29:14 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id TAA05988 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 19:29:34 -0600 Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [204.137.132.17]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id TAA05983 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 19:29:26 -0600 Received: by boutell.com id AA10590 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu); Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:34:57 -0800 From: Thomas Boutell Message-Id: <199601230134.AA10590@boutell.com> Subject: Re: State of the world with PNG specs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:34:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <427.822360149@sss.pgh.pa.us> from "Tom Lane" at Jan 22, 96 08:22:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > > Chris' abstract looks good to me, except I suggest we not claim to > replace TIFF --- TIFF can do many things that PNG cannot. Perhaps > "... replacement for GIF and can also replace common uses of TIFF". > Or is that too much detail for the abstract? I think this is a prudent change. No reason to open more of a land war than necessary. I also sent additional corrections to Chris; apologies for mistakenly not sending them to the full list. I am for the most part pleased with his abstract. -T ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 26 01:24:45 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id BAA02719 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 01:24:44 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id BAA12592 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 01:25:28 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id BAA12587 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 01:25:23 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id BAA27730 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 01:18:48 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id BAA19369 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 01:23:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 01:23:22 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601260723.BAA19369@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: new alpha-channel image uploaded Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I just uploaded LinuxSnakes.png to swrinde:/pub/incoming/png/, with final destination /pub/png-group/images/. This is an RGBA image similar to hell.png but with a more complex alpha channel. Unfortunately it's also about 610k in size, but it does make a very good test for alpha-supporting web browsers such as Arena. (XV also renders it competently, but of course without any background against which to composite it.) I'm working on a more complex/less contrived example based on the same Escher print and should have it ready by tomorrow. Thanks to Alexander and Willem for a very capable pnmtopng. Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 26 02:39:50 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id CAA03170 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 02:39:49 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id CAA13467 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 02:39:51 -0600 Received: from www.one.net (www.one.net [206.112.192.120]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id CAA13451; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 02:39:19 -0600 Received: from [206.112.193.32] (port-1-22.access.one.net [206.112.193.32]) by www.one.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA19576; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 03:32:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199601260832.DAA19576@www.one.net> To: "png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu" , "png-implement@dworkin.wustl.edu" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 03:34:31 -0500 From: GuyS X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List -- [ From: GuyS * EMC.Ver #2.5.03 ] -- I've put libpng 0.88 up on swrindle. This includes the progressive fixes that have been posted, as well as a slightly cleaner libpng.txt. I've also replaced all the tabs with spaces. I'll post a more official announcement on png-announce in a few days (in case there are any major bugs). For those of you who have smart email programs, the files are currently at: ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/incoming/png/lp088.zip ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/incoming/png/libpng-0.88.tar.gz ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/incoming/png/libpng-0.88.readme.txt They will soon be moved to: ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png/src/lp088.zip ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png/src/libpng-0.88.tar.gz ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png/src/libpng-0.88.readme.txt -Guy ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 26 12:16:43 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA12943 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:16:41 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id MAA20084 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:17:56 -0600 Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [204.137.132.17]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id MAA20076 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:17:48 -0600 Received: by boutell.com id AA17492 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu); Fri, 26 Jan 1996 10:22:52 -0800 From: Thomas Boutell Message-Id: <199601261822.AA17492@boutell.com> Subject: Re: your mail To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 10:22:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199601260832.DAA19576@www.one.net> from "GuyS" at Jan 26, 96 03:34:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > 0.88 Cool. I hear you got some code contributions from smarry, no? Glad to hear you're getting more enthusiastic coding support. -T ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 26 16:40:32 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA18735 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 16:40:32 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA26526 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 16:41:07 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id QAA26520 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 16:40:48 -0600 Received: from cguhpa.cgu.mcc.ac.uk by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 26 Jan 1996 22:38:49 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <9307.9601262239@cguhpa.cgu.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [Q] PNG recommended? To: qarl@cs.wustl.edu (Karl Stiefvater) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 22:39:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chris.lilley@mcc.ac.uk, png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu In-Reply-To: <9601262142.AA19169@siesta.cs.wustl.edu> from "Karl Stiefvater" at Jan 26, 96 03:42:21 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > > In article <4e5ejf$esh@yama.mcc.ac.uk> you wrote: > : Depends what you mean. It is not yet widely used inline in HTML > : documents (there were about 5 or so browsers that supported it > : inline, last I looked. Because content-negotiation is not widely > : implemented, it is difficult to serve PNG to clients that understand > : it inline and JPEG or GIF to those that do not. > > Do the big browsers support PNG? (Netscape, Mosaic?) NCSA Mosaic (for X) has handled PNG since version 2.7b1. I don't know about other platforms but I hear that internal (not yet released) Mac versions with PNG support are being tested. Microsoft have told me that MS Internet Explorer 3.0 will support PNG, including the progressive display. Spry Mosaic 95 supports PNG Netscape said in January last year that they would support PNG, but so far they have not done so. The PNG library has only recently (in the last couple of weeks) become fully thread-safe. Now that they can register their own callbacks and the library will work with their multi-thread model I see no technical reason that stops them. At a recent meeting, someone from Netscape was very excited about the transparency facilities of PNG and what that could do for image compositing over arbitrary backgrounds (for example, anti-aliased display typography). Spyglass expressed interest in adding PNG once the threded version of the library became available > Do they handle the gamma correctly? NCSA Mosaic for X - Not last I checked, but it is easy enough to add since the sources are free. If not, it will soon. Amiga Mosaic - don't know, I don't have an Amiga Spry Mosaic 95 - yes Chimera - no Arena - yes MS IE - I will nag them till they do ;-) Netscape - we will have to see emacs-w3 with XEmacs 19.14 or later - don't know, haven't seen it yet -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 26 18:14:46 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA20215 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 18:14:45 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA28155 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 18:16:05 -0600 Received: from utserv.mcc.ac.uk (utserv.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA28126 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 18:15:58 -0600 Received: from cguhpa.cgu.mcc.ac.uk by utserv.mcc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:54:33 +0000 From: lilley Message-Id: <9509.9601262353@cguhpa.cgu.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: State of the world with PNG specs To: glennrp@ARL.MIL (Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:53:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu In-Reply-To: <9601251857.aa21431@TBD2.ARL.MIL> from "Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB" at Jan 25, 96 06:57:41 pm Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK Phone: +44 0161 275 6045 Fax: +44 0161 275 6040 Operating-System: some HP unix thingy X-Uri: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glenn wrote: > Chris, are you planning to send us a new abstract, taking into account > the comments of tom, Thomas, and me? Thanks for the first draft! You > might as well post the new one to png-list, which has been pretty quiet > lately. Ok. Here is the second cut at an abstract. Other list ppl: this is a proposed abstract to go in front of the RFC form of the PNG 1.0 spec. Note: I will have only sporadic access to email next week. I will be out of the country beginning of the week, I am getting married at the end of the week. They are knocking out one wall of my office, too ;-) So if there is a presing need for change, and I don't respond to email, go ahead without me and I will catch up later. Are we planning for the RFC first or the W3C TR first? ======> comments and discussion follows CL> PNG was designed for inline use in HTML, and so is fully streamable ^^^^^^^ TB> I suggest "on the World Wide Web." The current wording suggests TB> PNG binary data directly enclosed in an HTML document (yipes!). The term inline image is widely used and understood and is used in the HTML 2.0 specification. Inline refers to the presentation, not the mode of delivery. "inline use on the World Wide Web." does not seem to mean anything (how can it be inlined into a concept?) I have altered this, see what you think. TB> Looks good otherwise. Perhaps you should add a sentence to the TB> effect that special-purpose application data can be stored TB> in a manner that is transparent to other applications. I do say it is extensible. I have added more text. TL> Chris' abstract looks good to me, except I suggest we not claim to TL> replace TIFF --- TIFF can do many things that PNG cannot. Perhaps TL> "... replacement for GIF and can also replace common uses of TIFF". Done CL> This document describes Portable Networked Graphics (PNG), an GRP> PNG (Portable Network Graphics), is an "This document describes" is how lots of these Informational RFCs start. Speak to them in their own language. I have re-ordered the bracketing as requested. CL> PNG was designed for inline use in HTML, and so is fully streamable =================================== GRP> We had inline HTML images in mind, but that wasn't the only GRP> reason PNG was designed. How about "PNG was designed to accomodate [sp?] GRP> inline use in HTML World Wide Web pages, and so... I think the modifications below also cover this one. Can't remember what consensus was regarding Media Type so I put it in a separate para - cut or merge with preceeding as you see fit. Abstract is now 170 words. It should not grow any more. =========> the abstract Status of this Memo This memo provides information for the Internet community. It does not specify an Internet standard. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. Abstract This document describes PNG (Portable Network Graphics), an extensible file format for the lossless, portable storage of rasterised images with good compression. It provides a patent-free replacement for the GIF format and for common uses of the TIFF format. Both indexed (up to 256 colors) and truecolour (up to 48bit) images are provided for, plus an optional alpha channel of up to 16 bits. PNG is robust, and permits early detection of common transmission errors. PNG was designed to work well on the Web, including use with the element in HTML, and so is fully streamable with a progressive display option. It can also contain gamma and chromaticity data for improved color matching on heterogenous platforms. The PNG format has been stable and in use since March 1995. There are no subsets; all PNG readers are required to display all valid PNG files. Private or special-purpose application data is handled such that this inherent portability is not compromised. The image/png Internet Media Type (RFC 1590) is defined by this specification. -- Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Manchester and North Training & Education Centre ( MAN T&EC ) | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Computer Graphics Unit, Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk | | Manchester Computing Centre, Voice: +44 161 275 6045 | | Oxford Road, Manchester, UK. Fax: +44 161 275 6040 | | M13 9PL BioMOO: ChrisL | | Timezone: UTC URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Jan 26 23:52:06 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA22354 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:52:06 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id XAA01346 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:53:34 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id XAA01341 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:53:30 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id XAA17010 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:46:50 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id XAA26261 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:51:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:51:09 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601270551.XAA26261@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: State of the world with PNG specs Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > I am getting married at the end of the week. Congratulations! Or consolations, as the case may be. :-) Abstract nits: > This document describes PNG (Portable Network Graphics), an > extensible file format for the lossless, portable storage of > rasterised images with good compression. This kinda sounds like the images have good compression already... Does "portable storage with good compression of raster images" work? (And I don't like "ised" in general; I don't think it's needed here.) > format. Both indexed (up to 256 colors) and truecolour (up to ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ Pick one or the other (you use "color" elsewhere in the document). Also, I think "true-color" usually wants a hyphen, right? > to 16 bits. PNG is robust, and permits early detection of common ^ no comma before dependent clause > PNG was designed to work well on the Web, including use with the > element in HTML, and so is fully streamable with a progressive ^ and ? > improved color matching on heterogenous platforms. ^ hyphen Overall info looks great. Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Jan 27 13:14:45 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA27695 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:14:43 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA07511 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:15:48 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA07506 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:15:42 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA09195 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:11:17 -0500 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: The PNG abstract Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:11:16 -0500 Message-ID: <9192.822769876@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I've merged the various comments on Chris' abstract with some thoughts of my own, and have inserted the following text into the master document. Further suggestions are welcome. ------- text of abstract ---------- This document describes PNG (Portable Network Graphics), an extensible file format for the lossless, portable, well-compressed storage of raster images. PNG provides a patent-free replacement for the GIF format and can also replace many common uses of the TIFF format. Indexed-color, grayscale, and truecolor images are provided for, plus an optional alpha channel; sample depths range from 1 to 16 bits. PNG is robust and permits early detection of common transmission errors. PNG is designed to work well in on-line viewing applications, such as the World Wide Web, and so it is fully streamable with a progressive display option. It can also contain gamma and chromaticity data for improved color matching on heterogenous platforms. PNG is intended to be both highly extensible and highly interchangeable. Although incompatible private extensions are possible, it is expected that all PNG decoders will be able to read essentially all PNG files. The proposed Internet Media Type image/png is defined by this specification. ------- commentary ---------- Chris' original neglected to mention grayscale images; fixed. I rephrased the info about bit depths to avoid parenthetical remarks. I generalized the statement about the Web to refer to on-line viewing applications in general. (Is there a better general term than "on-line"?) I don't think the comment about "stable since March 1995" is appropriate; it just sounds defensive to me, and in a year or so it will look silly. Chris' text had "all PNG readers are required to display all valid PNG files" which is clearly false: consider private critical chunks. I rephrased as you see above, but I am strongly tempted to delete that paragraph altogether. Any opinions on this? Better wordings? We cannot yet say that media type "image/png" is defined by this spec. Is "proposed" sufficient weasel wording, or would it be better to just leave out the last sentence? Of course, if we can obtain registration of the media type before the RFC is final, then we'll just take out "The proposed". BTW, I have added a section to the "miscellaneous topics" chapter that reads as follows:

Internet media type

The PNG authors intend to register "image/png" as the Internet Media Type (RFC 1590) for PNG. At the date of this document, the media type registration process had not been completed. It is recommended that browsers also recognize the interim media type "image/x-png". Anyone have a problem with this wording? Again, I have hopes that we can revise it before the document becomes final, but if not... regards, tom lane ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Jan 27 13:48:58 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA27806 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:48:57 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA07788 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:50:35 -0600 Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [204.137.132.17]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id NAA07783 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:50:29 -0600 Received: by boutell.com id AA22063 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu); Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:55:34 -0800 From: Thomas Boutell Message-Id: <199601271955.AA22063@boutell.com> Subject: Re: State of the world with PNG specs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:55:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9509.9601262353@cguhpa.cgu.mcc.ac.uk> from "lilley" at Jan 26, 96 11:53:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >From Chris' revised abstract: > The PNG format has been stable and in use since March 1995. There > are no subsets; all PNG readers are required to display all valid > PNG files. Private or special-purpose application data is handled > such that this inherent portability is not compromised. Whoa! Careful. All PNG readers are not only permitted, but strongly encouraged, NOT to display any PNG file that contains an unrecognized critical chunk. I'm not sure how to reword this, but right now it's simply a false statement. -T ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Jan 27 22:23:16 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA00037 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 22:23:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id WAA11554 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 22:24:45 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id WAA11549 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 22:24:41 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id WAA09544 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 22:17:58 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id WAA21956 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 22:22:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 22:22:02 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601280422.WAA21956@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: second new alpha-channel image uploaded Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > I'm working on a more complex/less contrived example based on the same > Escher print and should have it ready by tomorrow. It is now done and uploaded to swrinde as AlphaSnakes.png, final resting place /pub/png-group/images/. This one is also quite big, unfortunately (669k). For those of you without access to an alpha-capable PNG viewer, I'll also upload AlphaSnakes-arena.jpg, a 28k half-size image (measured linearly) of the PNG file as viewed in Arena beta-1d on a 16-bit display--i.e., composited with the sandy background. It's small, but you can see the background fil- tering through in many places and just a bit of haziness here and there. Unlike LinuxSnakes.png, which had an alpha channel completely unrelated to the primary image, AlphaSnakes.png's alpha channel is based on the image itself. In some sense this is an approximation of the image "as it was supposed to be"; the subject matter of the original image has been lifted off of the original white background and now looks pretty good on any background, even black. For those who are curious about the creation of the image: after con- verting the image to 8-bit, I used XV's color editor to change virtually all of the background pixels to blue, then used xpaint to paint over any blue pixels in the main part of the image, then used a hex editor to set the blue entry to black and everything else to white. After another pass with xpaint to clean up random pixels here and there, I converted the b/w mask to PGM format and fed it into Level Connector (see the file comments for a pointer) with force 6.0 to make a smoothly varying PGM file. Un- fortunately it was a little too smooth (the snakes' noses faded out almost completely, as did some of the "lace" at the edges), so I averaged it with the original bi-level mask to create a moderately smooth mask with still some recognizable edges. I then fed this final PGM mask file to pnmtopng as the alpha channel for the original 24-bit image, and AlphaSnakes.png is the result. Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sun Jan 28 05:25:34 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id FAA02638 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 05:25:33 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id FAA14287 for png-list-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 05:26:57 -0600 Received: from alpha.ntu.ac.sg (alpha.ntu.ac.sg [155.69.1.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id FAA14280 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 05:26:47 -0600 Received: from ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg by ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg (PMDF V5.0-4 #7636) id <01I0JZG7FJMS93D2SO@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg> for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:23:48 +0800 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:23:48 +0800 From: "WILLEM VAN SCHAIK (INTERNET: GWILLEM@NTUVAX.NTU.AC.SG)" Subject: Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Message-id: <01I0JZG7FKKM93D2SO@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg> Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore X-VMS-To: IN%"png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu" X-VMS-Cc: GWILLEM MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg wrote: > I just uploaded LinuxSnakes.png to swrinde:/pub/incoming/png/, with final > destination /pub/png-group/images/. This is an RGBA image similar to > hell.png but with a more complex alpha channel. Unfortunately it's also > about 610k in size, but it does make a very good test for alpha-supporting > web browsers such as Arena. (XV also renders it competently, but of course > without any background against which to composite it.) > I'm working on a more complex/less contrived example based on the same > Escher print and should have it ready by tomorrow. > Thanks to Alexander and Willem for a very capable pnmtopng. Wow, I like to hear that . And of course as a Dutchman, I like to see pictures of Escher being used as test patterns. But may I also recommend (again) the bitmaps or icons in PngSuite that support alpha-channels. Both grayscale as well as rgb images with various background chunks are provided. For testing purposes, I think they pack the highest test- capability / file-size ratio :-) See you all, Willem ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sun Jan 28 14:22:05 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA04970 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 14:22:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA18053 for png-list-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 14:22:46 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA18048 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 14:22:40 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA11027 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 15:18:58 -0500 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: PNG draft 0.93 is done Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 15:18:58 -0500 Message-ID: <11024.822860338@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List We're getting closer... There are not many textual changes from 0.92, except at the beginning and ending areas of the spec. The new version has an abstract, and what had been the "Status" section has mostly moved to a couple of new appendices titled "on-line resources" and "revision history". There are a few nitpicky editorial improvements elsewhere, but no technical changes. Glenn and I have spent a fair amount of time on reformatting scripts and suchlike, with the result that we can now generate an NROFF version that meets the RFC formatting standards from the same master file as the HTML version. We don't currently have an automatic means for generating a PostScript file. I plan to work on that shortly, but I thought I'd put this draft out for review first. There are now three separate formats of the PNG spec: Multi-page HTML Single-page HTML Plain text (RFC format) I don't really know why anyone would want a single-page HTML version, but that is what W3C seems to prefer... Each of these differs somewhat from the others. For example, cross-references include section numbers in the text version but not in the multi-HTML version. The initial boilerplate is per RFC custom in the text version but per W3C's request in the HTML. There will shortly be a fourth, PostScript version, which I expect will be textually identical to the single-page HTML version. I've uploaded to swrinde.nde.swri.edu:/pub/incoming/png: png-0.93-html.tar.gz PNG draft 0.93, HTML format (multiple pages) png-0.93-html-single.html.gz PNG draft 0.93, HTML format (one file) png-0.93.nr.gz PNG draft 0.93, NROFF source for RFC png-0.93.txt.gz PNG draft 0.93, plain text (RFC format) png-0.93-master.tar.gz PNG draft 0.93, master document and scripts pngext-0.93.html.gz PNG extensions 0.93, HTML I expect Keith will move these to /pub/png-group/documents/ (NOT the public /png directory, please, at least not yet). regards, tom lane ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sun Jan 28 16:07:43 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA05352 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 16:07:42 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA20413 for png-list-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 16:09:10 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id QAA20406 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 16:09:03 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id QAA11161 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 16:02:14 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id QAA15728 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 16:07:05 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 16:07:05 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601282207.QAA15728@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: PNG draft 0.93 is done Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > I don't really know why anyone would want a single-page HTML version, [...] > There will shortly be a fourth, PostScript version, which I expect will > be textually identical to the single-page HTML version. I was just going to say that various browsers make PostScript automatically out of single-page HTML (the "print" button)... Have these been submitted to W3C as another working draft, or do they grab it automatically, or will all that happen after we look over it first, or what? Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sun Jan 28 19:31:22 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA06036 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:31:21 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id TAA23442 for png-list-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:31:57 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id TAA23437 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:31:49 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id TAA16092 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:25:01 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id TAA03702 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:29:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:29:49 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601290129.TAA03702@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Wow, I like to hear that . And of course as a Dutchman, I like to see > pictures of Escher being used as test patterns. But may I also recommend > (again) the bitmaps or icons in PngSuite that support alpha-channels. Until this week I had no good way to view those icons; yes, XV does do alpha channels, but it composites against black in the absence of a bKGD chunk, so there's really no way to tell which images are which. It's also not the best way to view small images. However, I just threw together a quick HTML page with PngSuite on it, and it's really *much* more impressive when viewed with Arena on a true- color display. I may clean it up a bit and make it part of the PNG pages, given that the suite is so small. > Both grayscale as well as rgb images with various background chunks are > provided. For testing purposes, I think they pack the highest test- > capability / file-size ratio :-) Granted. :-) But for web-page viewing, the *Snakes.png and hell.png images are much more impressive (if I do say so myself) and in some ways more useful; they fit the typical browser window quite closely and are considerably larger than the typical Netscape-type background tile--i.e., you get multiple copies of the background tile behind the PNG image rather than multiple PNG icons on top of each tile. The size penalty is hard to ignore, however. For the record, I'd love to see the Traff balls (or marbles) regenerated with an alpha channel so that they would look good on any background. Even better would be a version of POV-Ray with an "alpha" texture so that one could have nice anti-aliased curves, diagonal lines and shadows with trans- parency, too. Hint hint, anyone? :-) Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sun Jan 28 20:35:37 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA06332 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 20:35:37 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id UAA23869 for png-list-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 20:37:00 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id UAA23864 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 20:36:54 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id UAA17549 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 20:30:06 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id UAA08105 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 20:34:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 20:34:53 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601290234.UAA08105@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: PNG draft 0.93 is done Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > We're getting closer... Yup, looks very nice. I skimmed through the single-page HTML version and random-sampled certain parts in depth; some very minor points: - In section 4.2.1, bKGD, it says "a viewer may choose to use a different background color." I would suggest amending this to "a viewer may choose to use a different background color, particularly if the viewer has a natural background color of its own (as with most WWW browsers)." Item for Dave: I think Arena does the wrong thing here. Section 10.7 says, "Viewers which have a specific background against which to present the image will ignore the bKGD chunk, in effect overriding bKGD with their preferred background color or background image." That's the right thing for a browser to do. - In section 10.7: ``Otherwise one would have to imagine something "behind the background" to composite against.'' -> ``...against which to com- posite.'' - Section 12.6 on interlacing might add that embedded text in the image is generally readable about twice as fast as with GIF's interlacing (i.e., after PNG's fifth pass or 25% of the image data instead of after GIF's third pass or 50%), again thanks to the more balanced x-y resolution increase. This is very relevant in WWW imagemaps. - In section 16, the new online resources section, I'd like to request that a link to the PNG home pages be added. Not only is it a central clearing- house for PNG tools and images (via pointers, that is), but I think it's naive to assume that only developers will ever look at the spec. And even for developers, it's useful to know that there will be some level of watch- dogging (that is, I report on gamma and alpha support, where known). Also, I think that "online," like "workstation," is almost never hyphenated anymore. - In section 18, credits, should Glenn, Chris and/or Dave be included as contributing editors? (I've forgotten who wrote the gamma and color tutorials, but you said you and Glenn had worked on 0.93 together.) I'm making a distinction between spec "authors" (i.e., those who helped create the PNG concept) and spec writer/editors (those who actually wrote it all down and edited it into this draft). Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sun Jan 28 22:17:26 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id WAA06680 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:17:24 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id WAA24806 for png-list-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:19:04 -0600 Received: from v9001.ntu.ac.sg (v9001.ntu.ac.sg [155.69.1.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id WAA24715 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:14:43 -0600 Received: from ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg by ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg (PMDF V5.0-4 #7636) id <01I0KYO24WQ89AN3MT@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg> for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:10:01 +0800 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:10:01 +0800 From: "WILLEM VAN SCHAIK (INTERNET: GWILLEM@NTUVAX.NTU.AC.SG)" Subject: Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Message-id: <01I0KYO26GAQ9AN3MT@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg> Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore X-VMS-To: IN%"png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu" X-VMS-Cc: GWILLEM MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg wrote: >For the record, I'd love to see the Traff balls (or marbles) regenerated >with an alpha channel so that they would look good on any background. Even >better would be a version of POV-Ray with an "alpha" texture so that one >could have nice anti-aliased curves, diagonal lines and shadows with trans- >parency, too. Hint hint, anyone? :-) Hey, I did once already a manual try to create that PNG logo (with the Adam-7 balls) as an alpha supporting picture. But it was 1) too much work (pixel by pixel) and 2) the result was not as I would like. So, yes it should be rendered against a transparent background so that we can use the background chunk to fill in the background color. Is POV capable of the ????? Willem ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 08:58:02 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id IAA11220 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 08:57:57 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id IAA00513 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 08:59:07 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id IAA00508 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 08:59:03 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA12840 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:55:13 -0500 To: PNG List Subject: Re: PNG draft 0.93 is done In-reply-to: Your message of Sun, 28 Jan 1996 16:07:05 -0600 (CST) <199601282207.QAA15728@ellis.uchicago.edu> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:55:12 -0500 Message-ID: <12838.822927312@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg sez: > I was just going to say that various browsers make PostScript automatically > out of single-page HTML (the "print" button)... Yes, I had been using Mosaic to make the PostScript version, but I haven't been happy with that solution because (a) it can't be automated by a Makefile; (b) the resulting PS file has to be hand-tweaked to be acceptable at all; (c) the formatting is pretty cruddy even after tweaking. I'm looking into conversion via LaTeX or possibly Lout instead. > Have these been submitted to W3C as another working draft, or do they > grab it automatically, or will all that happen after we look over it first, > or what? I was planning to notify Karen today to grab this version from swrinde, unless anyone sees something that drastically needs fixing. regards, tom lane ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 08:59:38 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id IAA11231 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 08:59:37 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA00580 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:01:27 -0600 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [198.53.31.1]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA00574 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:01:24 -0600 Received: (from chrish@localhost) by qnx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA29799 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:59:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199601291459.JAA29799@qnx.com> Subject: Re: PNG draft 0.93 is done To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:59:19 -0500 (EST) From: "Chris Herborth" In-Reply-To: <199601290234.UAA08105@ellis.uchicago.edu> from "Cave Newt" at Jan 28, 96 08:34:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List What you wrote: > > > We're getting closer... > > Yup, looks very nice. I skimmed through the single-page HTML version > and random-sampled certain parts in depth; some very minor points: ... > - In section 10.7: ``Otherwise one would have to imagine something "behind > the background" to composite against.'' -> ``...against which to com- > posite.'' Ugh. Sorry, but I really have to re-write that for you. Phrases like "..against which to compsite" and "...one would have to..." must be destroyed. If I get a chance, I'll proof the current documents to stamp out more of this stuff. Anyway, try this: "Otherwise, an application would have to composite against something ``behind the background''." > Also, I think that "online," like "workstation," is almost never hyphenated > anymore. I'd agree with this. So would online documentation and HCI guru William Horton (Designing & Writing Online Documentation). :) > - In section 18, credits, should Glenn, Chris and/or Dave be included as > contributing editors? (I've forgotten who wrote the gamma and color > tutorials, but you said you and Glenn had worked on 0.93 together.) I'm > making a distinction between spec "authors" (i.e., those who helped create > the PNG concept) and spec writer/editors (those who actually wrote it all > down and edited it into this draft). If I copy-edit the spec, do I get mentioned? :-) -- ----------========================================================---------- Chris Herborth, R&D Technical Writer Arcane Dragon chrish@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. -==(UDIC)==- ||| JAGUAR http://www.qnx.com/~chrish/ DNRC Holder of Past Knowledge / | \ 64-bit ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 09:19:55 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA11902 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:19:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA00846 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:21:41 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA00841 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:21:36 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA12883 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 10:17:50 -0500 To: PNG List Subject: PNG online resources (Re: PNG draft 0.93 is done) In-reply-to: Your message of Sun, 28 Jan 1996 20:34:53 -0600 (CST) <199601290234.UAA08105@ellis.uchicago.edu> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 10:17:50 -0500 Message-ID: <12881.822928670@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg said: > - In section 16, the new online resources section, I'd like to request > that a link to the PNG home pages be added. Actually, I deliberately left that out pending discussion on the list. What I'm concerned about is stability of the resources we point to. The uunet archive was set up specifically because we expect it to be around indefinitely. Is the PNG home page likely to still be around, *at the same address*, four or five years from now? The text of the spec certainly will be. Of course the obvious rejoinder is that we shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket: if uunet goes out of business, or something, it'd be good to have other addresses included in the spec. So I'd appreciate suggestions for what to put in this section besides uunet, but I wanted to make it clear that we are talking about long- term commitments here. regards, tom lane PS: Greg, thanks for the wording nitpicks; I appreciate such careful reading. I'd appreciate more such input. ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 11:16:46 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA13814 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:16:45 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA04275 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:18:06 -0600 Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [204.137.132.17]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id LAA04269 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:17:58 -0600 Received: by boutell.com id AA31024 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu); Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:23:05 -0800 From: Thomas Boutell Message-Id: <199601291723.AA31024@boutell.com> Subject: Really Permanent URLs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:23:04 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I've seen several queries about "really permanent" URLs for the PNG home pages and so on. How about: http://www.boutell.com/png This URL doesn't currently exist, but it could, and I wouldn't mind making sure that it always points somewhere. -T ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 12:11:55 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA14291 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:11:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id MAA05227 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:13:36 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id MAA05221 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:13:31 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id MAA15134 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:06:40 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id MAA20279 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:11:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:11:17 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601291811.MAA20279@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: PNG online resources (Re: PNG draft 0.93 is done) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >> - In section 16, the new online resources section, I'd like to request >> that a link to the PNG home pages be added. > What I'm concerned about is stability of the resources we point to. > The uunet archive was set up specifically because we expect it to be > around indefinitely. Is the PNG home page likely to still be around, > *at the same address*, four or five years from now? The text of the > spec certainly will be. I have no way of knowing, particularly since it's Mark's site and he's on vacation this week; but my feeling is that it's a poor tradeoff to deny all access to a useful resource (at least I'd like to think it's useful) on the assumption that it may go away in a few years. The obvious simple-minded way around the problem is to list the site and also note that, *if* it becomes unreachable for any length of time, there will be a file ftp://ftp.uu.net/graphics/png/PNG-home-pages.html that points to the new site or at least has some info about it. For that matter, it's probably a good idea to make such a file right now--there are probably people who know about or come across the ftp site by accident and have no further pointers. Btw, the PNG pages are also listed in Yahoo and (I think) the comp.graphics FAQ list. The more complicated and/or robust way to do it might be to take -T up on his offer (http://www.boutell.com/png/), especially if that could be made an auto-redirect link or something. (I know it's possible to do that sort of thing, but I have no idea how.) Or maybe he was simply offering a third semi-permanent location; each could have pointers to the other two. In any case, it seems to me that this is a relatively easy problem to solve, one way or the other. > PS: Greg, thanks for the wording nitpicks; I appreciate such careful > reading. I'd appreciate more such input. We be nitpicky. :-) Regards, Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 12:14:34 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA14332 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:14:34 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id MAA05304 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:16:24 -0600 Received: from Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (starbase.NeoSoft.COM [198.64.6.26]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id MAA05298 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:16:18 -0600 Received: (from peter@localhost) by Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (8.7.1/8.7.1) id MAA15355 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:14:19 -0600 (CST) From: Peter da Silva Message-Id: <199601291814.MAA15355@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Subject: Re: PNG draft 0.93 is done To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:14:19 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <12838.822927312@sss.pgh.pa.us> from "Tom Lane" at Jan 29, 96 09:55:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > > I was just going to say that various browsers make PostScript automatically > > out of single-page HTML (the "print" button)... > Yes, I had been using Mosaic to make the PostScript version, but I haven't > been happy with that solution because > (a) it can't be automated by a Makefile; > (b) the resulting PS file has to be hand-tweaked to be acceptable at all; > (c) the formatting is pretty cruddy even after tweaking. Well, if you have nroff output, groff produces perfectly acceptable Postscript (better than TeX IMHO, unless you tweak TeX to use Postscript fonts... then TeX kicks its butt). ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 12:35:31 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA14652 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:35:30 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id MAA05619 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:36:51 -0600 Received: from enel.ucalgary.ca (enel.ucalgary.ca [136.159.101.50]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id MAA05611 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:36:45 -0600 Received: from munet-h.enel.ucalgary.ca by enel.ucalgary.ca (SMI-8.6/ENEL-5) id LAA00240; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:34:49 -0700 From: adilger@enel.ucalgary.ca (Andreas Dilger) Received: (adilger@localhost) by munet-h.enel.ucalgary.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA04388 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:35:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199601291835.LAA04388@munet-h.enel.ucalgary.ca> Subject: Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:35:21 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <199601290129.TAA03702@ellis.uchicago.edu> from "Cave Newt" at Jan 28, 96 07:29:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg writes: > For the record, I'd love to see the Traff balls (or marbles) regenerated > with an alpha channel so that they would look good on any background. Even > better would be a version of POV-Ray with an "alpha" texture so that one > could have nice anti-aliased curves, diagonal lines and shadows with trans- > parency, too. Hint hint, anyone? :-) This just happens to be your lucky year. POV 3.0 supports the output of full alpha-channels with PNG images (courtesy of yours truly. Since I don't have an alpha-channel aware viewer, I haven't really had the chance to work with this much. I'd be happy to try rendering it with a transparent "background" and send it off to someone who can see if it works. Yes, I know I should compile XV with the PNG patch, but I'm missing a round tuit that I need to get the job done. Cheers, Andreas. -- Andreas Dilger University of Calgary \"If a man ate a pound of pasta and (403) 220-8792 Micronet Research Group \ a pound of antipasto, would they Dept of Electrical & Computer Engineering \ cancel out, leaving him still http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/ hungry?" -- Dogbert ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 12:51:25 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA14905 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:51:23 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id MAA05966 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:52:59 -0600 Received: from siesta.cs.wustl.edu (siesta.cs.wustl.edu [128.252.165.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id MAA05959 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:52:56 -0600 Received: by siesta.cs.wustl.edu (5.x/ECL-A1.27) id AA05850; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:51:01 GMT Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:51:01 GMT From: amc@cs.wustl.edu (Adam M. Costello) Message-Id: <9601291851.AA05850@siesta.cs.wustl.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Really Permanent URLs Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Thomas says: > How about: > > http://www.boutell.com/png Great! Except that you need a trailing slash. :) (But I'm serious, too. This is one of my pet issues.) AMC ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 14:12:08 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA15693 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:12:07 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA07457 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:13:24 -0600 Received: from mail.phoenix.net (mail.phoenix.net [199.3.232.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA07451 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:13:19 -0600 Received: from 199.3.232.2.phoenix.net (dial112.phoenix.net [199.3.234.147]) by mail.phoenix.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA21143 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:10:55 -0600 Message-Id: <199601292010.OAA21143@mail.phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Tim Wegner" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:11:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Andreas said: > This just happens to be your lucky year. POV 3.0 supports the output of > full alpha-channels with PNG images (courtesy of yours truly. Since I don't > have an alpha-channel aware viewer, I haven't really had the chance to work > with this much. I'd be happy to try rendering it with a transparent > "background" and send it off to someone who can see if it works. If there is anyone who would really try out POV-Ray's PNG and alpha support (thereby doing some useful testing), let me know and I'll get you in the POV-Ray beta program. The value to the PNG team of your doing this is that we can double check that the PNG support is of the quality we all want. (Not to question Andreas's work, I'm sure he'd be the first to say he'd like his work tested more!) Andreas's PNG support in POV-Ray really is impressive. PNG will become the output format of choice for serious POV-Ray users. ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 15:49:41 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA16941 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:49:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA10423 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:51:31 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id PAA10418 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:51:27 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id PAA00366 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:44:33 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id PAA07028 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:49:05 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:49:05 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601292149.PAA07028@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Andreas wrote: >> This just happens to be your lucky year. POV 3.0 supports the output of >> full alpha-channels with PNG images (courtesy of yours truly. Lovely! Many thanks. Tim wrote: > If there is anyone who would really try out POV-Ray's PNG and alpha > support (thereby doing some useful testing), let me know and I'll > get you in the POV-Ray beta program. The value to the PNG team of > your doing this is that we can double check that the PNG support is > of the quality we all want. (Not to question Andreas's work, I'm > sure he'd be the first to say he'd like his work tested more!) I could do maybe two or three images, but I'd also be happy simply to let Andreas do it and check the results. Or he could send me a minimal Linux binary setup if source code is the issue. Or whatever. Images that come to mind: - black PNG balls logo with black sky-sphere replaced by alpha - wooden PNG balls logo with wood replaced by glass and an alpha sky-sphere added - Traff marbles (or similar) on an alpha surface with shadows cast - glass Info-ZIP logo or `PNG' or other 3D text (lightly tinted?) over an alpha sky-sphere - anything on a standard infinite checkerboard where the white squares are alpha and the edges are super-sampled It's been a while since I looked at the 3.0 features list, and I don't have much imagination anyway, :-) so these are very simple extensions of stuff I've already done. I'm sure there are much more impressive possibilities. Btw, the Traff marbles are a fairly famous set of WWW icons with metallic and/or swirly marble textures. I don't think the source is available, but the balls themselves are included in various icon collections. They're quite beautiful and small enough to work quite nicely with a PNG alpha channel. Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 15:58:08 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA17034 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:58:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA10810 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:59:53 -0600 Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [165.90.138.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id PAA10802 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:59:46 -0600 Received: from sac2-74.calweb.com (sac2-74.calweb.com [165.90.187.74]) by mail.calweb.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA02548 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by sac2-74.calweb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BAEE51.E2A78120@sac2-74.calweb.com>; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:58:36 -0800 Message-ID: <01BAEE51.E2A78120@sac2-74.calweb.com> From: Lee Daniel Crocker To: "'PNG List'" Subject: RE: PNG draft 0.93 is done Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:58:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BAEE51.E2A78120" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAEE51.E2A78120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > - In section 10.7: ``Otherwise one would have to imagine > something "behind the background" to composite against.'' > -> ``...against which to composite.'' Don't you dare. Leave the preposition at the end where it belongs, and while you're at it, if you can find the English teacher who told you to change it, have him fired. Also, "on-line" still seems to be preferred by most magazines, but "online" is certainly used as well--just make sure you're consistent. -- Lee Daniel Crocker Internet/World Wide Web Consultant http://www.piclab.com/ ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAEE51.E2A78120 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiQVAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG ABgBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAEEAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABQTkcgTGlzdABTTVRQAHBuZy1saXN0QGR3b3JraW4ud3VzdGwuZWR1AAAAAB4AAjAB AAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAAbAAAAcG5nLWxpc3RAZHdvcmtpbi53dXN0bC5lZHUAAAMA FQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAAAsAAAAnUE5HIExpc3QnAAACAQswAQAAACAAAABTTVRQOlBO Ry1MSVNUQERXT1JLSU4uV1VTVEwuRURVAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD NDEBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAGwAAAFJFOiBQTkcgZHJh ZnQgMC45MyBpcyBkb25lALMHAQWAAwAOAAAAzAcBAB0ADQA6ABkAAQBSAQEggAMADgAAAMwHAQAd AA0ANQAFAAEAOQEBCYABACEAAABFQ0JBODE5RDQyNUFDRjExQjNBMjQ0NDU1MzU0MDAwMAACBwED kAYATAQAABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBAkvTplO66AR4A cAABAAAAGwAAAFJFOiBQTkcgZHJhZnQgMC45MyBpcyBkb25lAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABuu6U6eud gbrtWkIRz7OiREVTVAAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAADwAAAGxlZUBwaWNs YWIuY29tAAADAAYQWTIYhAMABxC+AQAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAALUlOU0VDVElPTjEwNzpPVEhFUldJ U0VPTkVXT1VMREhBVkVUT0lNQUdJTkVTT01FVEhJTkciQkVISU5EVEhFQkFDS0dST1VORCJUT0NP TVBPU0lURUFHQUlOU1QtQUdBSU5TVAAAAAACAQkQAQAAANQCAADQAgAAuwQAAExaRnXInQ5e/wAK AQ8CFQKoBesCgwBQAvIJAgBjaArAc2V0MjcGAAbDAoMyA8UCAHByQnER4nN0ZW0CgzM3AuQHEwKD NARGEzMxIIBMdWNpZGEgCFBrAIAG8GUCgzUSxxF1MF0Utn0KgAjPCdk7Gg8yPDU1AoAKgQ2xC2Bu Z3gxMDMUUAsKFFEL8mP9AEA+CuELZBVhHnQN8BNQim8T0GMFQC0gSQOgKxGwIIBpAiAgHTAuNwA6 ICBgYE90aLMEkAPxZSACICKQdwhgKGxkIBGAdiKQdG/SIAdwYWcLgGUKhB3PPx7fH+sXAAeAIiAL gGcg+CJiZSfhHb8AQCHQJe/TIBgiISBiANBrCcAIYI0ogCIjkgWgbXBvAJAdE9AgI/ALcRPALicn vyRPJV8qbyCRL4Ah4S4xsP8tZSLgJ+ARcCyLLd8u6AqFqkQCICcFQHkIYCAWoOUaEC4h0ExlI2Mr oRNQ9mUs8yFCYSt0CfAjMDJgbwSQIpAtICvAZRmgHRBzfiwtUCiACoUyYRcgNfInvzjxOBEtIDnA BpA182MDkdZmKHErg0UdEGwEADKh/zbAEXAEkDJRI7AjoCMhNgL/I6AKhRFxHRA5AjnAI1Mn4HZt PGEaES4ztgsZMC90szO/KVZBbBcAOcAiAiD+LT0wIsAscBPAAxADIBGw3xPgBCAjoShAN0JmBJAa ETkrwHkgBGAyMSPhYXrzJBE5sWJ1Q0VFQUWEBACvLLAEkAGQC4BsR7B1EbAVIzBhBCB3OWBsLS3W akrASAJrIpBzCHA6x/8FoACBE8ECMED3Qd9C6wqE7ws3F5IB0CCgLQqjNrAikO5EAHAIkAMgQwNg K/A90WI8FyBlQHAygAtgYvouLME+CqMg0BPQBKARwGwvVwWwIyFXFpAikFd8ZWIWwyMQAZACMAqj aEECQHA6Ly93V0AuFVNoL0/UfVigAwAQEAEAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzAgpWErlO66AUAACDAgpWEr lO66AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAACjQ= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAEE51.E2A78120-- ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 15:58:12 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA17041 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:58:10 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA10821 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 16:00:00 -0600 Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [165.90.138.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id PAA10808 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:59:51 -0600 Received: from sac2-74.calweb.com (sac2-74.calweb.com [165.90.187.74]) by mail.calweb.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA02538 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:57:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by sac2-74.calweb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BAEE51.DFE81300@sac2-74.calweb.com>; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:58:32 -0800 Message-ID: <01BAEE51.DFE81300@sac2-74.calweb.com> From: Lee Daniel Crocker To: "'PNG List'" Subject: RE: Really Permanent URLs Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:49:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BAEE51.DFF8DBE0" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAEE51.DFF8DBE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've seen several queries about "really permanent" URLs > for the PNG home pages and so on. Sure, boutell.com would be useful. Also, I'd be happy to use piclab.com for anything you need--mail or web. -- Lee Daniel Crocker Internet/World Wide Web Consultant http://www.piclab.com/ ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAEE51.DFF8DBE0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiAVAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG ABgBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAEEAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABQTkcgTGlzdABTTVRQAHBuZy1saXN0QGR3b3JraW4ud3VzdGwuZWR1AAAAAB4AAjAB AAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAAbAAAAcG5nLWxpc3RAZHdvcmtpbi53dXN0bC5lZHUAAAMA FQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAAAsAAAAnUE5HIExpc3QnAAACAQswAQAAACAAAABTTVRQOlBO Ry1MSVNUQERXT1JLSU4uV1VTVEwuRURVAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD NDEBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAGgAAAFJFOiBSZWFsbHkg UGVybWFuZW50IFVSTHMAqggBBYADAA4AAADMBwEAHQANADEACQABADkBASCAAwAOAAAAzAcBAB0A DQAvACUAAQBTAQEJgAEAIQAAAEU4QkE4MTlENDI1QUNGMTFCM0EyNDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwAPcGAQOQ BgBkAwAAEgAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5ACDeeZ6T7roBHgBw AAEAAAAaAAAAUkU6IFJlYWxseSBQZXJtYW5lbnQgVVJMcwAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG67pOeYZ2B uulaQhHPs6JERVNUAAAAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAPAAAAbGVlQHBpY2xh Yi5jb20AAAMABhB1DtS0AwAHEPAAAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABJVkVTRUVOU0VWRVJBTFFVRVJJRVNB Qk9VVCJSRUFMTFlQRVJNQU5FTlQiVVJMU0ZPUlRIRVBOR0hPTUVQQUdFU0FORFNPT05TVVJFLEJP VVRFTExDT01XT1VMREJFVVNFRlVMAAAAAAIBCRABAAAA6wEAAOcBAAAtAwAATFpGdaF6yUX/AAoB DwIVAqgF6wKDAFAC8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYABsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDMzcC5AcTAoM0 BEYTMzEggEx1Y2lkYSAIUGsAgAbwZQKDNRLHEXUwXRS2fQqACM8J2TsaDzI8NTUCgAqBDbELYG5n eDEwMxRQCwoUUQvyY/0AQD4K4QtkFWEedA3wE1AKbxPQYwVASSd2ZV4gEbAJ8CDxINByB0AgfnEK UAiBBCABoAhgBUAiwxoQB0BseSBwBJADgQEJ8HQiIFVSTHNvCoQdfx6PH58gAhAFwHSCaCDgUE5H IGgDcEsg4AqwZyIibmQg8G/6IAIgLgqEJCYmPgYACHCoZSwgImJlIvAuBaCobSB3CGBsKVBiIOBK dRGwZi0ALiAUsGyfFwAsACCwLSMRgHBwIxCcdG8KhS1xIyBpYwtgbmIskyfCAHB5KAALgGc0IHkI YCAjgAmALS3nAMADEQWxd2UwUCqfIBd/JC8zTzRXCoQLNxeSAdAgyzIACqNMCeAgRABwCJAlAyBD A2BjawSQIDypFyBlQDAIPgqjSQIwswSREcAvVwWwLRFXFpD9IOBXMrAWwy0AAZACMAqjgmgCQHA6 Ly93PmAqLjAILyn0fT/AAAMAEBABAAAAAwAREAAAAABAAAcwACecZ5PuugFAAAgwACecZ5PuugEe AD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAKHd ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAEE51.DFF8DBE0-- ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 17:01:29 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA17839 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 17:01:28 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA15047 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 17:02:58 -0600 Received: from enel.ucalgary.ca (enel.ucalgary.ca [136.159.101.50]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA15042 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 17:02:53 -0600 Received: from munet-h.enel.ucalgary.ca by enel.ucalgary.ca (SMI-8.6/ENEL-5) id QAA16780; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 16:00:56 -0700 From: adilger@enel.ucalgary.ca (Andreas Dilger) Received: (adilger@localhost) by munet-h.enel.ucalgary.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA05114 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 16:01:26 -0700 Message-Id: <199601292301.QAA05114@munet-h.enel.ucalgary.ca> Subject: Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 16:01:26 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <199601292149.PAA07028@ellis.uchicago.edu> from "Cave Newt" at Jan 29, 96 03:49:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg writes: > I could do maybe two or three images, but I'd also be happy simply to > let Andreas do it and check the results. Or he could send me a minimal > Linux binary setup if source code is the issue. I am just trying to log into ftp.uu.net to get the POV-Ray logo source files, and I noticed the readme file for the graphics/png directory says "Files within this subtree are automatically mirrored from godzilli.cs.sunysb.edu:pub/ngf" It seems to have all of the files up-to-date at least (libpng 0.88 and zlib 0.95), but unfortunately, the POV-Ray source files for the PNG balls image is no longer there. (Greg, this means the URL on your interlacing demo page is broken. Can you send me a copy of the scene file? I can also compile and send you a Linux ELF binary, or optionally an a.out binary, for POV 3.0 beta. I would have to send you the images anyways, since I don't have an alpha aware viewer yet.) Cheers, Andreas. -- Andreas Dilger University of Calgary \"If a man ate a pound of pasta and (403) 220-8792 Micronet Research Group \ a pound of antipasto, would they Dept of Electrical & Computer Engineering \ cancel out, leaving him still http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/ hungry?" -- Dogbert ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 17:59:10 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA18505 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 17:59:09 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA16007 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:00:19 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA16001 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:00:15 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id RAA09355 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 17:53:22 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id RAA27011 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 17:57:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 17:57:55 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601292357.RAA27011@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Andreas, > "Files within this subtree are automatically mirrored from > godzilli.cs.sunysb.edu:pub/ngf" I've been meaning to mention that to someone (tale@uu.net, I think), but I keep forgetting. > It seems to have all of the files up-to-date at least (libpng 0.88 and > zlib 0.95), but unfortunately, the POV-Ray source files for the PNG > balls image is no longer there. I'll try to get that uploaded for png-group/images tonight, assuming Keith doesn't mind. I have an older copy of the source file at work (3:2 aspect ratio), but not the final 4:3 version. > (Greg, this means the URL on your interlacing demo page is broken. Can > you send me a copy of the scene file? I can also compile and send you > a Linux ELF binary, or optionally an a.out binary, for POV 3.0 beta. I > would have to send you the images anyways, since I don't have an alpha > aware viewer yet.) I'll send you a private e-mail shortly... Thanks, Greg ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 18:11:31 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA18584 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:11:30 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA16139 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:13:19 -0600 Received: from maxwell.nde.swri.edu (maxwell.nde.swri.edu [129.162.171.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA16134 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:13:15 -0600 Received: (from ksp@localhost) by maxwell.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id SAA05035 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:11:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601300011.SAA05035@maxwell.nde.swri.edu> From: ksp@maxwell.nde.swri.edu (Keith S. Pickens) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:11:20 -0600 In-Reply-To: Cave Newt "Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded" (Jan 29, 5:57pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: PNG List Subject: Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On Jan 29, 5:57pm, Cave Newt wrote: } Subject: Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded } I'll try to get that uploaded for png-group/images tonight, assuming } Keith doesn't mind. I have an older copy of the source file at work } (3:2 aspect ratio), but not the final 4:3 version. Send it on over. -keith ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 18:18:09 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA18642 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:18:09 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA16330 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:20:00 -0600 Received: from wugate.wustl.edu (wugate.wustl.edu [128.252.120.1]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA16325 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:19:57 -0600 Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by wugate.wustl.edu (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id SAA14346 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:16:25 -0600 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id ah20403; 29 Jan 96 19:54 GMT Received: from abwillms.demon.co.uk ([158.152.70.175]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa19437; 29 Jan 96 19:46 GMT Received: from abwillms.demon.co.uk by abwillms.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA822943472 ; Mon, 29 Jan 96 19:24:32 GMT Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alaric B. Williams" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 19:24:32 +0000 Subject: Re: PNG draft 0.93 is done Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <822944765.19437.0@abwillms.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 29 Jan 96 at 9:59, Chris Herborth wrote: > If I copy-edit the spec, do I get mentioned? :-) Say, I make a really good curry. Can I be in the credits? :-) ABW ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Mon Jan 29 23:35:30 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id XAA20822 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 23:35:30 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id XAA21028 for png-list-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 23:37:12 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id XAA21022 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 23:37:06 -0600 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA15296 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 00:19:20 -0500 To: PNG List Subject: Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 29 Jan 1996 17:57:55 -0600 (CST) <199601292357.RAA27011@ellis.uchicago.edu> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 00:19:20 -0500 Message-ID: <15293.822979160@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Andreas, >> "Files within this subtree are automatically mirrored from >> godzilli.cs.sunysb.edu:pub/ngf" > I've been meaning to mention that to someone (tale@uu.net, I think), > but I keep forgetting. Not to worry. The message shown on cd'ing to a uunet directory comes from the .message file in that directory. It seems that uunet's procedures for changing the mirror source location do not include updating .message. I've complained about this to them in the past, without result :-( regards, tom lane ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 30 08:53:08 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id IAA25478 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:53:07 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id IAA07789 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:54:52 -0600 Received: from qnx.com (qnx.com [198.53.31.1]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id IAA07784 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:54:45 -0600 Received: (from chrish@localhost) by qnx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA08838 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 09:52:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199601301452.JAA08838@qnx.com> Subject: Re: PNG draft 0.93 is done To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 09:52:33 -0500 (EST) From: "Chris Herborth" In-Reply-To: <01BAEE51.E2A78120@sac2-74.calweb.com> from "Lee Daniel Crocker" at Jan 29, 96 01:58:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List What you wrote: > Greg sez: > > - In section 10.7: ``Otherwise one would have to imagine > > something "behind the background" to composite against.'' > > -> ``...against which to composite.'' > > Don't you dare. Leave the preposition at the end where it belongs, and > while you're at it, if you can find the English teacher who told you to > change it, have him fired. Greg just finished a PhD thesis, he's probably still in "academic writing" mode. :-) > Also, "on-line" still seems to be preferred by most magazines, but > "online" is certainly used as well--just make sure you're consistent. Consistancy is one of the best things a piece of technical writing can have, and so many people miss it... it's also fairly easy (unlike, say, creating a comprehensive and usable index). -- ----------========================================================---------- Chris Herborth, R&D Technical Writer Arcane Dragon chrish@qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. -==(UDIC)==- ||| JAGUAR http://www.qnx.com/~chrish/ DNRC Holder of Past Knowledge / | \ 64-bit ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 30 17:06:41 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA02060 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:06:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA18227 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:07:49 -0600 Received: from llyene.jpl.nasa.gov (llyene.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.75.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA18218 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:07:29 -0600 Received: from quest.jpl.nasa.gov (quest.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.75.43]) by llyene.jpl.nasa.gov (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA08657 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:06:00 -0800 Received: by quest.jpl.nasa.gov (NX5.67f2/NX3.0S) id AA06674; Tue, 30 Jan 96 15:04:53 -0800 Message-Id: <9601302304.AA06674@quest.jpl.nasa.gov> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Mark Adler Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 15:04:51 -0800 To: PNG List Subject: Re: PNG online resources (Re: PNG draft 0.93 is done) References: <199601291811.MAA20279@ellis.uchicago.edu> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Is the PNG home page likely to still be around, > *at the same address*, four or five years from now? Beats me. If I change jobs, it sure won't be. mark ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 30 17:31:55 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA02453 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:31:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA18986 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:33:30 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA18981 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:33:25 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id RAA11551 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:26:27 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id RAA24193; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:30:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:30:45 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601302330.RAA24193@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > Send it on over. OK, I just uploaded the POV-Ray source files as pnglogos-grr-src.zip, and I tossed the 1024x768 JPEGs in there, too: the full wooden one, the black one, and the two collages (one with Neal's logo in the middle). If that's too much for your machine, let me know and I'll if I can upload them to Dan Pape's site or something. Thanks, Greg P.S. I suggested /pub/png-group/images/logos as the final resting spot. ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Jan 30 17:43:39 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA02586 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:43:37 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA19336 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:45:19 -0600 Received: from maxwell.nde.swri.edu (maxwell.nde.swri.edu [129.162.171.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA19331 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:45:16 -0600 Received: (from ksp@localhost) by maxwell.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id RAA04451 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:43:15 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199601302343.RAA04451@maxwell.nde.swri.edu> From: ksp@maxwell.nde.swri.edu (Keith S. Pickens) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:43:15 -0600 In-Reply-To: Cave Newt "Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded" (Jan 30, 5:30pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: PNG List Subject: Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Moved to /pub/png-group/images/logos dir. -keith On Jan 30, 5:30pm, Cave Newt wrote: } Subject: Re: new alpha-channel image uploaded } > Send it on over. } } OK, I just uploaded the POV-Ray source files as pnglogos-grr-src.zip, } and I tossed the 1024x768 JPEGs in there, too: the full wooden one, } the black one, and the two collages (one with Neal's logo in the } middle). ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 31 00:42:38 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id AAA04705 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 00:42:33 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id AAA25413 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 00:43:58 -0600 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id AAA25408 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 00:43:56 -0600 Received: from ellis.uchicago.edu (roe2@ellis.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.62]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id AAA00073; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 00:36:57 -0600 Received: (from roe2@localhost) by ellis.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id AAA15868; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 00:41:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 00:41:10 -0600 (CST) From: Cave Newt Message-Id: <199601310641.AAA15868@ellis.uchicago.edu> To: cmarrin@sgi.com Subject: Re: PNG question Cc: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Chris, > I have a question about PNG. If you're not the right person to ask > would you mind forwarding this to whoever is appropriate? I'll forward this to png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu and see if they have anything to add... > I'm working on the VRML 2.0 specification and we have a need for a > format which supports both a full alpha channel and multiple images per > file. MPEG provides the latter but not the former. PNG has great alpha > support but does it have, or is there future possibility to have, a > multiple image format? It does not have a multiple-image extension, but we did discuss it somewhat back in February/March/April, and it came up again quite recently. There were differing opinions on what it should look like, but insofar as PNG is pretty modular, you could certainly take the minimalist approach I suggested long ago. The basic idea was to stick a PNG-like signature and meta-header on the front of a sequence of PNGs or near-PNGs, add a few new glue chunks to specify relative positioning and/or timing info and possibly the format of any shared palette(s) (e.g., first image's palette could define the de- fault for all the rest of the images unless explicitly given otherwise; or first one could hold until another showed up, after which that one would become the default; etc.), and so forth. Note that the enclosed sub-images could either be fully valid PNGs (in which case they could have the usual PNG signature embedded) or partial PNGs (in which case they must not have a PNG signature included). Unlike MPEG, this approach doesn't make use of any inter-image redundancy. So if you expect to have a lot of that and want really good compression, you would either need to worry about some sort of delta-encoding in the multi-PNG format (MPNG or MNG for short, btw), or else look elsewhere for a completely different format. Note that PNG is completely lossless--it's not really comparable to MPEG in any way except in the generic sense that it compresses images. Some more detailed info about what kind of sequences you need to compress would probably be of help to the others in giving you feedback. -- Greg Roelofs "Name an animal that's small and fuzzy." "Mold." newt@uchicago.edu or http://quest.jpl.nasa.gov/Info-ZIP/people/greg/ ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 31 13:10:01 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA10631 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:10:00 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA05090 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:11:41 -0600 Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [204.137.132.17]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id NAA05074 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:11:22 -0600 Received: by boutell.com id AA14269 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu); Wed, 31 Jan 1996 11:16:13 -0800 From: Thomas Boutell Message-Id: <199601311916.AA14269@boutell.com> Subject: MPNG To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 11:16:12 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Netscape has added support for multiple-part GIFs, and they have added a GIF extension block that marks a multiple-part GIF as a continuous loop animation. It's a neat little trick, reasonably well done, and PNG can't do it, alas. I am still happy with the basic design decision to keep multiple-image issues out of PNG itself. Had we not made that decision, PNG would not be as far along as it is, with the major browser vendors coming on line at a steady rate. However, I think the time may be drawing near to consider the design of MPNG (multiple-image PNG). * * * Suggested design goals for MPNG: 1. MPNG should deal with multiple PNG or PNG-like images. The spec for MPNG may accommodate extension mechanisms that would allow audio and other media types to reside in an MPNG file, but should *not* seek to define such alternate media types or descend into other quagmires not directly related to the storage of multiple images and the reasonable description of their interrelationships. 2. MPNG, like PNG, should be lossless. If an MPNG was assembled from a series of PNG frames (*), it should be possible to extract the same series of PNG frames later. Those interested in lossless animation should consider the merits of MPEG or AVI. 3. MPNG should not attempt to specify every possible interrelationship (interpretation) for the constituent images, but should be able to specify the common cases and should have a clear way to state that the relationship is "none of the above" if the images are not meant to be interpreted as one of the well-known cases. 3a. Sequential interpretation (animation) should be one of the expressly supported cases. Differential representation of frames and other lossless ways of taking advantage of the sequential nature of the animation to improve compression or performance should be supported. Timing information, indicating the point in time at which a particular frame is expected to be displayed, should be accommodated. 3b. An interpretation which is "simultaneous" should also be expressly supported. That is, it should be possible to specify the position of each frame in an overall virtual image. If such positions overlap, alpha should be taken advantage of to composite the images, thus permitting sophisticated overlays. 4. MPNG will *not* consist of a simple wrapper around a number of complete PNG data streams. This would contain redundant and inefficient information. Legal MPNG frames will not be legal PNG data streams, although care will be taken to make practical implementation of both in a single reference library a straightforward business. In practice, MPNG frames will strongly resemble PNG data streams and will not differ unprofitably from them except that redundant information, especially the initial PNG signature, will not be present. (Note that support for using a single palette and differential representation of frames is considered a profitable difference.) 5. "Seeking" should be supported. That is, even if differential representation of some sort is in use, it should be possible for the MPNG creator to mark particular frames as "seek points" from which examination of individual frames may be immediately resumed without the need to examine every frame from the beginning. 5a. It should be possible to name frames and thus to access specific frames by name. (This will prove compelling in WWW applications. The URL syntax already has an idiom for this: document#subdocument.) 6. Like PNG, MPNG should strive to be as legally unencumbered as possible. 7. Somebody else should probably head the effort. I could conceivably be drafted, but I'm betting there is someone with an even greater desire to see MPNG come into being. -T ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 31 13:10:11 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA10643 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:10:08 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA05089 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:11:40 -0600 Received: from boutell.com (boutell.com [204.137.132.17]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id NAA05079 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:11:33 -0600 Received: by boutell.com id AA14269 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu); Wed, 31 Jan 1996 11:16:13 -0800 From: Thomas Boutell Message-Id: <199601311916.AA14269@boutell.com> Subject: MPNG To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 11:16:12 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Netscape has added support for multiple-part GIFs, and they have added a GIF extension block that marks a multiple-part GIF as a continuous loop animation. It's a neat little trick, reasonably well done, and PNG can't do it, alas. I am still happy with the basic design decision to keep multiple-image issues out of PNG itself. Had we not made that decision, PNG would not be as far along as it is, with the major browser vendors coming on line at a steady rate. However, I think the time may be drawing near to consider the design of MPNG (multiple-image PNG). * * * Suggested design goals for MPNG: 1. MPNG should deal with multiple PNG or PNG-like images. The spec for MPNG may accommodate extension mechanisms that would allow audio and other media types to reside in an MPNG file, but should *not* seek to define such alternate media types or descend into other quagmires not directly related to the storage of multiple images and the reasonable description of their interrelationships. 2. MPNG, like PNG, should be lossless. If an MPNG was assembled from a series of PNG frames (*), it should be possible to extract the same series of PNG frames later. Those interested in lossless animation should consider the merits of MPEG or AVI. 3. MPNG should not attempt to specify every possible interrelationship (interpretation) for the constituent images, but should be able to specify the common cases and should have a clear way to state that the relationship is "none of the above" if the images are not meant to be interpreted as one of the well-known cases. 3a. Sequential interpretation (animation) should be one of the expressly supported cases. Differential representation of frames and other lossless ways of taking advantage of the sequential nature of the animation to improve compression or performance should be supported. Timing information, indicating the point in time at which a particular frame is expected to be displayed, should be accommodated. 3b. An interpretation which is "simultaneous" should also be expressly supported. That is, it should be possible to specify the position of each frame in an overall virtual image. If such positions overlap, alpha should be taken advantage of to composite the images, thus permitting sophisticated overlays. 4. MPNG will *not* consist of a simple wrapper around a number of complete PNG data streams. This would contain redundant and inefficient information. Legal MPNG frames will not be legal PNG data streams, although care will be taken to make practical implementation of both in a single reference library a straightforward business. In practice, MPNG frames will strongly resemble PNG data streams and will not differ unprofitably from them except that redundant information, especially the initial PNG signature, will not be present. (Note that support for using a single palette and differential representation of frames is considered a profitable difference.) 5. "Seeking" should be supported. That is, even if differential representation of some sort is in use, it should be possible for the MPNG creator to mark particular frames as "seek points" from which examination of individual frames may be immediately resumed without the need to examine every frame from the beginning. 5a. It should be possible to name frames and thus to access specific frames by name. (This will prove compelling in WWW applications. The URL syntax already has an idiom for this: document#subdocument.) 6. Like PNG, MPNG should strive to be as legally unencumbered as possible. 7. Somebody else should probably head the effort. I could conceivably be drafted, but I'm betting there is someone with an even greater desire to see MPNG come into being. -T ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 31 17:16:58 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA12831 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 17:16:58 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA14133 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 17:18:36 -0600 Received: from tbd2.arl.mil (tbd2.arl.mil [128.63.9.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id RAA14125 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 17:18:30 -0600 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 23:14:46 GMT From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Zlib and Deflate documentation Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory, APG, MD Message-ID: <9601312314.aa23613@TBD2.ARL.MIL> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List In reply to the message > From: "Keith S. Pickens" > Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:38:10 -0600 > Subject: Re: Zlib and Deflate documentation > } After a suitable review period (a week or so?) > } they can be moved to png/documents. > > Let me know when they have aged enough. > > -keith They have aged enough. Please remove them. They have been obsoleted by Internet Drafts for zlib 3.3 and deflate 1.3, which you can read on and shortly on the internet-draft mirrors. Jean-Loup has posted copies (except for the html versions) on //quest, and those will shortly be on ftp.uu.net. The HTML versions presently only appear on //tcg. Do you also want a set for swrinde? I can tar up the entire html page together with the docs and upload if you want. ../glennrp ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 31 18:07:17 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA13201 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 18:07:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA14729 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 18:09:13 -0600 Received: from llyene.jpl.nasa.gov (llyene.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.75.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA14723 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 18:09:02 -0600 Received: from quest.jpl.nasa.gov (quest.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.75.43]) by llyene.jpl.nasa.gov (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA05669 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 16:07:47 -0800 Received: by quest.jpl.nasa.gov (NX5.67f2/NX3.0S) id AA25450; Wed, 31 Jan 96 16:06:39 -0800 Message-Id: <9602010006.AA25450@quest.jpl.nasa.gov> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Mark Adler Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 16:06:37 -0800 To: PNG List Subject: MPNG prediction References: <199601311916.AA14269@boutell.com> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Thomas wrote: Differential representation of frames and other lossless ways of taking advantage of the sequential nature of the animation to improve compression or performance should be supported. There was some talk about fancy filters in the third dimension. For video, where the third dimension is time, several years ago I did some work with lots of fancy 3D perfect reconstruction filters (even some with quite pretty diamond shapes) and found no benefit beyond simple subtraction, and even the subtraction didn't help sometimes. What really works is, unfortunately, the kludgy MPEG subtraction from a previous 16x16 block with a vector offset. So as a first shot at it, I'd recommend these choices: no filtering; simple subtraction; and vectored block subtraction where the block size and vector ranges are selectable in the format. (Note that the search for the best offset can be rather compute-intensive, so experimentation with this stuff is difficult. Not to mention the storage required for a decent length video.) However it is possible and even likely that where the third dimension is not time (for example wavelength for multispectral images) that more fancy filtering would work. As Thomas pointed out, you have to have non-filtered frames every once in a while. MPEG calls frames that stand on their own "I" frames. The predicted frames are called "P" frames. MPEG also has a third type, "B" frames, which are interpolated. In that case each 16x16 block has two vectors, one which refers to a previous I or P frame, and one which refers to a latter I or P frame. Those blocks are averaged to predict the block being reconstructed in the B frame. I have no idea whether B frames would help in a lossless scheme, but it is clear that there has to at least be a marker indicating if this is an I frame or a P frame. Another little complication to consider is interlacing. Real digitized video has fields, not frames, where there are even and odd fields. It is not correct to put two fields together to make a frame, since they are offset in time as well as space. (In 3D, the edge-on appearance of the horizontal lines is a checkerboard of dots.) So there ought to be a way to specify at least vertical offsets of successive frames, as well as time offsets. mark ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 31 18:17:16 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA13269 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 18:17:15 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA14883 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 18:18:52 -0600 Received: from llyene.jpl.nasa.gov (llyene.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.75.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA14878 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 18:18:47 -0600 Received: from quest.jpl.nasa.gov (quest.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.75.43]) by llyene.jpl.nasa.gov (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA05815 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 16:17:40 -0800 Received: by quest.jpl.nasa.gov (NX5.67f2/NX3.0S) id AA25576; Wed, 31 Jan 96 16:16:33 -0800 Message-Id: <9602010016.AA25576@quest.jpl.nasa.gov> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Mark Adler Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 16:16:32 -0800 To: PNG List Subject: MPNG goals References: <199601311916.AA14269@boutell.com> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Thomas wrote: 1. MPNG should deal with multiple PNG or PNG-like images. The spec for MPNG may accommodate extension mechanisms that would allow audio and other media types to reside in an MPNG file, but should *not* seek to define such alternate media types or descend into other quagmires not directly related to the storage of multiple images and the reasonable description of their interrelationships. I disagree. I can see the expediency of this approach, but ... The synchronization of sound with video and assuring that the two are not wildly disconnected in the data stream (requiring arbitrarily large buffers and delays) requires in my mind defining the sound stream as part of the format. Tacking sound on later as an extension would be, I predict, a disaster. If you don't think sound would ever be wanted or stuffed in MPNG, then you can just leave it out. Otherwise, I think it has to be considered. Perhaps it would be enough to describe a meta-extension that provides the synchonization information for a chunk with an inherent limitation to the scope of images that that chunk applies to, without saying that you're putting sound or whatever in the chunk. Then it could also be used for closed-captions, overlayed text, etc. mark ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 31 18:59:57 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA13517 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 18:59:56 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id TAA15352 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 19:01:56 -0600 Received: from maxwell.nde.swri.edu (maxwell.nde.swri.edu [129.162.171.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id TAA15345 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 19:01:53 -0600 Received: (from ksp@localhost) by maxwell.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id SAA14915 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 18:59:46 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199602010059.SAA14915@maxwell.nde.swri.edu> From: ksp@maxwell.nde.swri.edu (Keith S. Pickens) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 18:59:46 -0600 In-Reply-To: Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB "Re: Zlib and Deflate documentation" (Jan 31, 11:14pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: PNG List Subject: Re: Zlib and Deflate documentation Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On Jan 31, 11:14pm, Glenn Randers-Pehrson ARL-WTD-TED-TIB wrote: } Subject: Re: Zlib and Deflate documentation } } } Do you also want a set for swrinde? I can tar up the entire html page } together with the docs and upload if you want. } It would seem like a good idea to have them on swrinde. -keith ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body. From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Jan 31 19:01:58 1996 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id TAA13540 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 19:01:57 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id TAA15386 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 19:04:00 -0600 Received: from grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (grolsch.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.9]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id TAA15381 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 19:03:56 -0600 Received: from [198.162.38.159] (davem.home.cs.ubc.ca [198.162.38.159]) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA20502 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 17:01:45 -0800 X-Sender: davem@mail.cs.ubc.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 17:02:07 -0800 To: PNG List From: davem@cs.ubc.ca (Dave Martindale) Subject: Re: MPNG prediction Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Mark wrote: >Another little complication to consider is interlacing. Real digitized video >has fields, not frames, where there are even and odd fields. It is not >correct to put two fields together to make a frame, since they are offset in >time as well as space. (In 3D, the edge-on appearance of the horizontal lines >is a checkerboard of dots.) So there ought to be a way to specify at least >vertical offsets of successive frames, as well as time offsets. Don't forget variable frame rate, perhaps within a single MPNG sequence. A great deal of stuff available in video form is really transferred from a 24 FPS original medium (film) to 30 FPS video using a field-replication pattern called "3/2 pulldown". In this case, you really want the conversion from video to digital form to figure out the 3/2 pulldown sequence and discard the duplicated fields, and merge the two adjacent fields that came from a single film frame back into a single digital frame, since the two fields *are* coincident in time. This is non-trivial, particularly if any editing was done in the video domain, but outside the scope of a digital image format. However, it *does* mean that support high-quality transfers into the digital realm, you need to support: 1) 24 distinct frames/sec, with all pixels being replaced each frame (for material originated on film) 2) 30 distinct frames/sec (for stuff originated on film at 30 FPS because it was destined for video) 3) 60 distinct fields/sec, where each field contains only the even or odd scanlines, and so you probably only replace half the pixels on the screen each update (for stuff captured via a proper NTSC video camera) 4) a variety of lower frame rates and lower resolutions for non-standard "video" cameras like a Quickcam, frame grabbing only every other field from a video source, computer-generated animation, etc. And you may want to switch from one mode to the other within a sequence, since you can have (for example) material that cuts between film-originated and video-originated images. My head hurts thinking about it. Dave ------------------------------------------------------------ To find out more about the mailing list server, send mail to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu with the word "help" (and nothing else) in the message body.