From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Jul 2 23:18:01 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15975; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:18:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id XAA16370 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:15:59 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16366 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:15:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a (p1-22.netgsi.com [209.150.125.22]) by mail.netgsi.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B199B188F3 for ; Sat, 03 Jul 1999 00:15:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990703001515.0197e540@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 00:15:15 -0400 To: MPNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: CFV: MNG-0.95e, pHYg and global pHYs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990618085954.01922b20@netgsi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List CALL FOR VOTE (YES|NO|ABSTAIN) MNG-0.95d 19990618 pHYg and global pHYs ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents MNG-0.95e-phyg-phys-19990618.txt Glenn Randers-Pehrson > >------------cut here------------------ >MNG-0.95e, Draft 68, 19990618 > >pHYg chunk and global pHYs > >This proposal is with respect to MNG 0.95c (Draft 66). > >This proposal supersedes MNG-0.95d, Draft 67, 19990615. > >MNG-0.95e Draft 68 19990618 is created by making the following changes >to MNG-0.95c Draft 66 19990615: > >Section 4.2.5, BASI, is modified to add the words shown in >square brackets: > > Top-level gAMA, sRGB, cHRM, iCCP, bKGD, sBIT, [pHYs,] and sPLT chunks > are inherited by a BASI datastream in the same manner as by a PNG > datastream. > >Section 4.5.4, pHYs, is modified to delete the words shown in double >square brackets and to add the material shown in square brackets > > 4.5.4. [[pHYs]][pHYg] Physical pixel size[, global] > > The MNG [[pHYs]][pHYg] chunk is identical in syntax to the >#ifdef MNG-VLC > PNG pHYs chunk. It applies to complete MNG layers and not to > the individual images within them. >#else > PNG pHYs chunk. It applies to complete [full-frame] MNG layers > and not to the individual images within them. [Conceptually, a > MNG viewer that processes the pHYg chunk will first composite > each image into a full-frame layer, then apply the pHYg scaling > to the layer, and finally composite the scaled layer into the > subframe.] >#endif > [MNG datastreams can include both the pHYs chunk (either at the > MNG top level or within the PNG and JNG datastreams) and the > pHYg chunk (only at the MNG top level), to ensure that the images > are properly displayed either when displayed by a MNG viewer or > when extracted into a series of individual PNG or JNG datastreams > and then displayed by a PNG or JNG application. The pHYs and > pHYg chunks would normally contain the same values, but this is > not necessary.] > > The MNG top-level [[pHYs]][pHYg] chunk can be nullified by a > subsequent empty [[pHYs]][pHYg] chunk appearing in the MNG top level. > >Section 4.5.5, Ancillary PNG chunks, is modified to add the >words shown in square brackets: > > The following PNG chunks are also defined at the MNG top level. > They provide default values to be used in case they are not > provided in subsequent PNG or JNG datastreams. Any of these chunks > can be nullified by the appearance of a subsequent empty chunk > with the same chunk name. Such empty chunks are not legal PNG > or JNG chunks and must only appear in the MNG top level. > > * cHRM, gAMA, iCCP, sRGB, bKGD, sBIT, pHYs > > In the MNG top level, all of these chunks are written as though > for 16-bit RGBA PNG datastreams. Decoders are responsible for > reformatting the chunk data to suit the actual bit depth and color > type of the datastream that inherits them. > > A MNG editor that writes PNG or JNG datastreams is expected to > include the top-level cHRM, gAMA, iCCP, and sRGB chunks in the > generated PNG or JNG datastreams, if the embedded image does > not contain its own chunks that define the color space. When > it writes the sRGB chunk, it should write the gAMA chunk (and > perhaps the cHRM chunk), in accordance with the PNG > specification, even though no gAMA or cHRM chunk is present in > the MNG datastream. It is also expected to write the [pHYs chunk > and the] reformatted top-level bKGD chunk in the generated PNG or > JNG datastreams, and the reformatted sBIT chunk only in generated > PNG datastreams, when the datastream does not have its own bKGD > [, pHYs,] or sBIT chunks. > > ... > > MNG editors that write PNG datastreams should ignore the > sPLT [[and pHYs]] data from the MNG level and simply copy any > sPLT [[and pHYs]] chunks appearing within the PNG > datastreams. > >Section 6.1.15. oFFs and pHYs, is modified to add the words shown >in square brackets: > > MNG viewers must ignore oFFs and pHYs chunks that appear inside > a PNG or JNG datastream [or are inherited from the MNG top level]. > MNG editors are expected to treat them as unknown chunks that will > be handled as described in above (Paragraph 6.1.12). > > >-- >Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu > > -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Jul 2 23:47:44 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16340; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:47:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id XAA17348 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:47:41 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA17344 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:47:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a (p1-22.netgsi.com [209.150.125.22]) by mail.netgsi.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D8D22188F3 for ; Sat, 03 Jul 1999 00:47:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990703004658.01986300@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 00:46:58 -0400 To: MPNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: VOTE (YES): MNG-0.95e, pHYg and global pHYs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990703001515.0197e540@netgsi.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990618085954.01922b20@netgsi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List YES MNG-0.95d 19990618 pHYg and global pHYs ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents MNG-0.95e-phyg-phys-19990618.txt Glenn Randers-Pehrson PNGs with pHYs chunks are more prevalent than I would have thought. This change is needed to allow editors to convert a stream of PNGs (or other format) with identical resolutions efficiently. I think pHYg is less confusing than the 0.95c MNG pHYs chunk. This proposal clearly separates the top-level pHYg from the PNG/JNG-level pHYs, which have somewhat different functions. The new global pHYs is more like the rest of the global PNG/JNG ancillary chunks. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Jul 3 15:09:11 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25566; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:09:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id PAA21224 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:06:33 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp3.xs4all.nl (smtp3.xs4all.nl [194.109.30.146]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21220 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:06:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gerard1 (dc2-isdn2086.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.156.38]) by smtp3.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA28722 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 22:06:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199907032006.WAA28722@smtp3.xs4all.nl> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gerard Juyn" To: mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 22:12:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: VOTE (YES): MNG-0.95e, pHYg and global pHYs In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.19990703004658.01986300@netgsi.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990703001515.0197e540@netgsi.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List YES MNG-0.95e 19990618 pHYg and global pHYs ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents MNG-0.95e-phyg-phys-19990618.txt Gerard Juyn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Jul 3 15:40:04 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25935; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:40:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id PAA22169 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:40:00 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22165 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:39:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a (p1-5.netgsi.com [209.150.125.5]) by mail.netgsi.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D55818819 for ; Sat, 03 Jul 1999 16:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990703163908.01a776d0@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 16:39:08 -0400 To: MPNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: CFD: MNG-0.95e, pHYg and global pHYs 19990618 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990618085954.01922b20@netgsi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List I tried implementing the 0.95e proposal in ImageMagick. It wasn't a big deal, since I already had the bKGD and other chunks set up the same way. It's on the order of 20 lines of code to decode the chunk, set a flag or two, and to check whether the PNG has its own pHYs chunk. In the encoder, there are a few more lines (10 or so) to check whether all images are using the same pHYs data and to write a global pHYs if they are. I uploaded a couple of MNG-LC files to swrinde with and without the feature. Keith, please install them in ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/images germans-0.95c.mng germans-0.95e.mng They each contain 24 8-bit grayscale images. The MNGs were assembled with ImageMagick (convert figure*.png germans-0.95e.mng) Both contain the BACK chunk and a global bKGD chunk. germans-0.95c.mng contains individual pHYs chunks and germans-0.95e contains a single global pHYs chunk. pngcheck has no problem with either file. They aren't really intended to be shown as animations. If you have ImageMagick, try "montage germans-0.95c.mng montage.png" and then "display montage.png". "convert" will also losslessly convert them to individual pngs and back to mng format. Note that the 0.95e file is actually a legitimate 0.95c file, it's just that what to do with the decoded pHYs chunk is different. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 5 08:17:36 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20682; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:17:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id IAA27957 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:16:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA27953 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:16:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a (p1-22.netgsi.com [209.150.125.22]) by mail.netgsi.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EDDCA18928 for ; Mon, 05 Jul 1999 09:16:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990705091553.00fbf850@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 09:15:53 -0400 To: mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: abbreviated JNG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List While doing some homework in preparation for implementing JNG, it occurred to me that the "abbreviated JPEG" file described in jpeg-6b/libjpeg.doc is a natural fit with MNG and should be supported in the MNG/JNG formats. It could be set up like global PLTE in PNG: JTAB Parameter tables for JNG empty: (not valid in standalone JNG datastreams) placeholder for inheriting a global JTAB chunk 1 byte: contents 0: the remainder of the chunk contains an abbreviated tables-only baseline JPEG datastream 1: the remainder of the chunk contains "quality" and "colorspace" bytes only 2-255: not defined in this version of JNG, must be zero n bytes (if "contents==0): either a tables-only baseline JPEG datastream 2 bytes (if "contents ==1) "quality" unsigned integer, range 1..100 "colorspace" unsigned integer 0: Grayscale 1: YCbCr When "contents" is 1, the decoder must create a set of parameter tables which are identical to those created by this series of IJG libjpeg-6b calls: if(colorspace == 0) jpeg_set_colorspace(cinfo, JCS_GRAYSCALE); else jpeg_set_colorspace(cinfo, JCS_YCbCr); jpeg_set_defaults(cinfo); jpeg_set_quality(cinfo, (int) quality, TRUE); Although this chunk is primarily designed for use in MNG datastreams, it also affords an opportunity to economize on file size by incorporating the parameter tables via a three-byte JTAB chunk instead of including them explicitly in the file. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 5 12:12:40 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22721; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:12:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id MAA06755 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:12:34 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [209.114.166.2]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06751 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:12:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA21446 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:12:13 -0400 (EDT) To: MPNG List Subject: Re: abbreviated JNG In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 05 Jul 1999 09:15:53 -0400 <3.0.6.32.19990705091553.00fbf850@netgsi.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:12:13 -0400 Message-ID: <21443.931194733@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson writes: > While doing some homework in preparation for implementing > JNG, it occurred to me that the "abbreviated JPEG" file > described in jpeg-6b/libjpeg.doc is a natural fit with MNG > and should be supported in the MNG/JNG formats. Reasonable. > 1: the remainder of the chunk contains "quality" and > "colorspace" bytes only > [snip] > When "contents" is 1, the decoder must create a set of parameter > tables which are identical to those created by this series of > IJG libjpeg-6b calls: This is *not* reasonable and I emphatically do not recommend it. There is nothing standard about the quantization tables created by the current IJG code --- in fact, I have been planning for some time to change the IJG quality scale at our next major release. Saving a couple hundred bytes in a multi-frame MNG is not worth the compatibility risk. Just offer a chunk type that is defined to preload the quantization and Huffman tables and leave it at that. I'd suggest looking at the revised TIFF/JPEG spec (ftp://ftp.uu.net/graphics/jpeg/TIFFTechNote2.txt.gz) to see how table sharing is done there --- the optional TIFFTables tag contains a complete tables-only datastream, and I'd recommend MNG do the same. regards, tom lane organizer, Independent JPEG Group -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 5 12:39:18 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22926; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:39:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id MAA07519 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:39:14 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA07515 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:39:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a (p1-33.netgsi.com [209.150.125.33]) by mail.netgsi.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0F9891893C for ; Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:39:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990705133824.01af0830@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:38:24 -0400 To: MPNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: abbreviated JNG In-Reply-To: <21443.931194733@sss.pgh.pa.us> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List At 01:12 PM 7/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >Glenn Randers-Pehrson writes: >> While doing some homework in preparation for implementing >> JNG, it occurred to me that the "abbreviated JPEG" file >> described in jpeg-6b/libjpeg.doc is a natural fit with MNG >> and should be supported in the MNG/JNG formats. > >Reasonable. > >> 1: the remainder of the chunk contains "quality" and >> "colorspace" bytes only >> [snip] >> When "contents" is 1, the decoder must create a set of parameter >> tables which are identical to those created by this series of >> IJG libjpeg-6b calls: > >This is *not* reasonable and I emphatically do not recommend it. >There is nothing standard about the quantization tables created >by the current IJG code --- in fact, I have been planning for some >time to change the IJG quality scale at our next major release. >Saving a couple hundred bytes in a multi-frame MNG is not worth >the compatibility risk. > >Just offer a chunk type that is defined to preload the quantization >and Huffman tables and leave it at that. OK. Thanks! I hadn't got to the point of counting up the potential savings, and if it's only a couple hundred bytes per file, I agree with you. Would you recommend a format other than a "tables-only" JPEG to contain the tables? Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 5 12:47:58 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23007; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:47:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id MAA07822 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:47:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA07817 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:47:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a (p1-33.netgsi.com [209.150.125.33]) by mail.netgsi.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 88FFC1893D for ; Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990705134704.01af7e20@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:47:04 -0400 To: MPNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: abbreviated JNG In-Reply-To: <21443.931194733@sss.pgh.pa.us> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List At 01:12 PM 7/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >Just offer a chunk type that is defined to preload the quantization >and Huffman tables and leave it at that. I'd suggest looking at >the revised TIFF/JPEG spec >(ftp://ftp.uu.net/graphics/jpeg/TIFFTechNote2.txt.gz) to see how >table sharing is done there --- the optional TIFFTables tag contains >a complete tables-only datastream, and I'd recommend MNG do the same. > OK, how's this, if I didn't mess up the cut&pasting too badly: When the JTAB chunk is present, it shall contain a valid JPEG "abbreviated table specification" datastream. This datastream shall begin with SOI and end with EOI. It may contain zero or more JPEG "tables and miscellaneous" markers, namely: DQT DHT DAC (not to appear unless arithmetic coding is used) DRI APPn (shall be ignored by JNG readers) COM (shall be ignored by JNG readers) Since JPEG defines the SOI marker to reset the DAC and DRI state, these two markers' values cannot be carried over into any image datastream, and thus they are effectively no-ops in the JTAB chunk. To avoid confusion, it is recommended that writers not place DAC or DRI markers in the JTAB. chunk. However readers must properly skip over them if they appear. -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 5 12:51:01 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23067; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:51:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id MAA07872 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:50:58 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [209.114.166.2]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA07868 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:50:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA21715 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:50:57 -0400 (EDT) To: MPNG List Subject: Re: abbreviated JNG In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:38:24 -0400 <3.0.6.32.19990705133824.01af0830@netgsi.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:50:56 -0400 Message-ID: <21713.931197056@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson writes: >> Just offer a chunk type that is defined to preload the quantization >> and Huffman tables and leave it at that. > OK. Thanks! I hadn't got to the point of counting up the potential > savings, and if it's only a couple hundred bytes per file, I agree with you. > Would you recommend a format other than a "tables-only" JPEG to contain > the tables? No. That leaves you the maximum flexibility against future changes in JPEG. Although I dunno what a tables-only JPEG might contain in JPEG2000, I am sure the concept will exist (if it still has any use). Also, a less flexible format might shut out useful choices such as preloading some tables and not others. You should read TTN2's discussion of the issue. What it comes down to is that you might save half a dozen bytes or so by using some hardwired layout instead of a standard JPEG datastream, and I don't think that savings is worth loss of flexibility. regards, tom lane -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 5 13:00:46 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23159; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:00:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id NAA08103 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:00:18 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [209.114.166.2]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08096 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:00:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA21745 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:59:55 -0400 (EDT) To: MPNG List Subject: Re: abbreviated JNG In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:47:04 -0400 <3.0.6.32.19990705134704.01af7e20@netgsi.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:59:55 -0400 Message-ID: <21743.931197595@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson writes: > OK, how's this, if I didn't mess up the cut&pasting too badly: Looks OK as far as it goes, but you will also need to pick up the surrounding paragraphs that define what JPEGTables (JTAB) is for and restrict redefinition of tables. (In a non-looping MNG it might be possible to get away with changing tables midstream, but it's probably safest to just forbid it the same way TIFF does.) > DAC (not to appear unless arithmetic coding is used) You might want to just drop the references to DAC. TIFF allows (but discourages) arith-coded JPEG data, so it had to cover the possibility of a DAC marker. I thought we had adopted a harder line against arith coding in MNG... regards, tom lane -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 5 13:32:06 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23429; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:32:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id NAA09013 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:31:57 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA09009 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:31:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a (p1-33.netgsi.com [209.150.125.33]) by mail.netgsi.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 374221887F for ; Mon, 05 Jul 1999 14:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990705143106.01af4a00@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 14:31:06 -0400 To: MPNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: abbreviated JNG In-Reply-To: <21743.931197595@sss.pgh.pa.us> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List At 01:59 PM 7/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >Glenn Randers-Pehrson writes: >> OK, how's this, if I didn't mess up the cut&pasting too badly: > >Looks OK as far as it goes, but you will also need to pick up the >surrounding paragraphs that define what JPEGTables (JTAB) is for >and restrict redefinition of tables. >(In a non-looping MNG it might >be possible to get away with changing tables midstream, but it's >probably safest to just forbid it the same way TIFF does.) Inside the JNG, no redefinition would be allowed. You'd either have to have an empty JTAB to signify that the global JTAB is to be inherited, or have the regular DQT and DHT inside the JDATs. (Do we actually need the empties? Is the absence of DQT and DHT in the main JPEG stream sufficient to indicate that the decoder should look for global tables?) In MNG, redefinition or nullifying would be OK, just as global PLTE can be redefined or nullified for PNGs. > >I thought we had adopted a harder line against >arith coding in MNG... Yes, we don't allow it. So we don't need to mention DAC markers. There's another complexity to think about with JTAB. The JNG might contain as many as four different JPEG datastreams (8 and 12 bit main image, and if we happen to approve the JDAA alpha channel, 8 and 12 bit alpha channels), each of which could make effective use of a global (but maybe different) table. Probably the best way of dealing with that would be to use a semantics byte JTAB 0
JTAB 1
JTAB 2 JTAB 3 and allow as many as four global JTAB chunks in a datastream. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 5 13:39:00 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23488; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:39:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id NAA09267 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:38:57 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA09263 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:38:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 28065 invoked from network); 5 Jul 1999 18:38:50 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 5 Jul 1999 18:38:50 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt.sonic.net [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03322 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:38:50 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA19955 for mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:38:50 -0700 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:38:50 -0700 Message-Id: <199907051838.LAA19955@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: Re: abbreviated JNG Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List >> DAC (not to appear unless arithmetic coding is used) > You might want to just drop the references to DAC. TIFF allows (but > discourages) arith-coded JPEG data, so it had to cover the possibility > of a DAC marker. I thought we had adopted a harder line against > arith coding in MNG... Or any patented scheme. There's also the related issue of whether libjpeg supports it (I haven't checked) and of when the patent(s) expire (presumably not for several more years). I thought the current JNG spec already explicitly required the usual DCT/Huffman-coded type of JPEG anyway? Greg -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 5 14:52:04 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24074; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:52:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id OAA11337 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:51:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [209.114.166.2]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11333 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:51:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA22055 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:51:43 -0400 (EDT) To: MPNG List Subject: Re: abbreviated JNG In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 05 Jul 1999 14:31:06 -0400 <3.0.6.32.19990705143106.01af4a00@netgsi.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 15:51:42 -0400 Message-ID: <22053.931204302@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson writes: > Inside the JNG, no redefinition would be allowed. You'd either > have to have an empty JTAB to signify that the global JTAB is > to be inherited, or have the regular DQT and DHT inside the JDATs. > (Do we actually need the empties? Is the absence of DQT and DHT in the > main JPEG stream sufficient to indicate that the decoder should > look for global tables?) The way this would normally work is that the decoder starts out with a bunch of NULL table slots. You feed it the tables-only datastream from JTAB (if any), and it loads values into whichever table slots are defined by DQT and DHT markers. Then you feed it the main JPEG datastream from the file. It loads table slots from any DQT or DHT markers it finds (possibly overwriting previously loaded values). When it gets to the compressed data proper, it checks to see that all the table slots referenced by SOF and SOS are defined, and raises an error if any of them are still NULL. Otherwise, full speed ahead. If you are reading a series of JPEG images that might (or might not) share tables, then ideally all you have to do is stuff the image datastreams into the decoder. As long as you don't reset the decoder (destroy/recreate the JPEG decoder object, in libjpeg terminology), the table slot values are automatically carried over from one datastream to the next, so if one datastream references a table slot without having loaded it via DQT/DHT, it just inherently gets whatever was last loaded into that slot. If the order in which datastreams are read is fully deterministic, then you can just allow any datastream to change any table slot at any time and expect the MNG creator to make sure that each subsequent datastream is encoded against the right set of tables. But if the order is *not* fully deterministic then you want some rules restricting reloading of table slots, so that the decoder won't get the wrong answers if it reads the datastreams in an order the creator wasn't expecting. The restriction TTN2 proposes is that the per-image datastreams can only load table slots not loaded by JPEGTables (JTAB), and cannot rely on the values of such table slots being carried over from any other per-image datastream. This is probably a reasonable tack to take for MNG as well. I can think of more-complex-but-more-flexible rules, but I'm not sure they'd be worth the complexity. Anyway, to answer your question, I don't see any need for an empty JTAB chunk in the per-JNG header material. At least not as far as the JPEG decoder is concerned --- it will not have any trouble complaining if it doesn't have the required tables. It could be that an empty JTAB chunk would be useful as a flag for MNG editors; it would tell them that the JNG depends on a global JTAB without their having to look inside the JPEG datastream to find that out. Dunno if this is worthwhile. > There's another complexity to think about with JTAB. The JNG > might contain as many as four different JPEG datastreams (8 and > 12 bit main image, and if we happen to approve the JDAA alpha channel, > 8 and 12 bit alpha channels), each of which could make effective use > of a global (but maybe different) table. Good point. I think that two JTABs (one for 8-bit and one for 12-bit) would be sufficient. There are more table slots available than are customarily used for color images, and so a MNG creator could just assign some of the slots for image data and some for alpha data. regards, tom lane -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 5 15:52:10 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24645; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:52:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id PAA13159 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:52:04 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13155 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:52:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a (p1-33.netgsi.com [209.150.125.33]) by mail.netgsi.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D10AA1891B for ; Mon, 05 Jul 1999 16:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990705165113.01a82920@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 16:51:13 -0400 To: MPNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: abbreviated JNG In-Reply-To: <22053.931204302@sss.pgh.pa.us> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List At 03:51 PM 7/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >Glenn Randers-Pehrson writes: >> Inside the JNG, no redefinition would be allowed. You'd either >> have to have an empty JTAB to signify that the global JTAB is >> to be inherited, or have the regular DQT and DHT inside the JDATs. >> (Do we actually need the empties? Is the absence of DQT and DHT in the >> main JPEG stream sufficient to indicate that the decoder should >> look for global tables?) > >The way this would normally work is that the decoder starts out with >a bunch of NULL table slots. per JNG-type object.... >You feed it the tables-only datastream >from JTAB (if any), and it loads values into whichever table slots are >defined by DQT and DHT markers. Then you feed it the main JPEG >datastream from the file. It loads table slots from any DQT or DHT >markers it finds (possibly overwriting previously loaded values). >When it gets to the compressed data proper, it checks to see that all >the table slots referenced by SOF and SOS are defined, and raises >an error if any of them are still NULL. Otherwise, full speed ahead. > >If you are reading a series of JPEG images that might (or might not) >share tables, then ideally all you have to do is stuff the image >datastreams into the decoder. As long as you don't reset the decoder >(destroy/recreate the JPEG decoder object, in libjpeg terminology), >the table slot values are automatically carried over from one datastream >to the next, so if one datastream references a table slot without having >loaded it via DQT/DHT, it just inherently gets whatever was last loaded >into that slot. > >If the order in which datastreams are read is fully deterministic, then >you can just allow any datastream to change any table slot at any time >and expect the MNG creator to make sure that each subsequent datastream >is encoded against the right set of tables. But if the order is *not* >fully deterministic then you want some rules restricting reloading of >table slots, so that the decoder won't get the wrong answers if it reads >the datastreams in an order the creator wasn't expecting. For any given object (i.e., a basic image plus possibly a series of deltas) it will be fully deterministic. I can imagine a decoder that might be doing objects in parallel. We don't need any special rules to prevent trouble from happening in that case, though, because it's obvious that such a decoder is going to have to have complete separate data for each object. Adding a global JTAB doesn't introduce any new complexity there. > >The restriction TTN2 proposes is that the per-image datastreams can only >load table slots not loaded by JPEGTables (JTAB), and cannot rely on >the values of such table slots being carried over from any other >per-image datastream. In the case of Delta-PNG, it could rely on tables being carried over from the parent object. So you could have this legal but improbable arrangement: MHDR JTAB DEFI 1 JHDR JTAB
JDAT IEND DEFI 2 JHDR JTAB
JDAT IEND DHDR 2 JDAT (inherits Table B) IEND DHDR 1 JDAT (inherits Table A) IEND DEFI 3 JHDR JDAT (inherits Table G) IEND DHDR 3 JDAT (inherits Table G) IEND DHDR 2 JDAT (inherits Table B) IEND MEND >This is probably a reasonable tack to take for >MNG as well. I can think of more-complex-but-more-flexible rules, but >I'm not sure they'd be worth the complexity. Each object has its own set of table slots, which might be filled from the global JTAB or from a local JTAB, but eventually must be filled by something. > >Anyway, to answer your question, I don't see any need for an empty JTAB >chunk in the per-JNG header material. At least not as far as the JPEG >decoder is concerned --- it will not have any trouble complaining if it >doesn't have the required tables. It could be that an empty JTAB chunk >would be useful as a flag for MNG editors; it would tell them that >the JNG depends on a global JTAB without their having to look inside >the JPEG datastream to find that out. Dunno if this is worthwhile. I didn't think of that. It might be worthwhile for that reason. It isn't needed for PLTE-type placeholding, though. I think it *is* useful to allow editors to manipulate files without having to look inside JDAT, IDAT, etc. Although in the case of JNG, no great harm would be done if the global JTAB were copied unnecessarily into a standalone JNG, since when it finally was processed by a viewer, the viewer would realize that it could ignore the JTAB, and some "jngcrush" optimizer could recognize the situation and remove the excess baggage. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 5 18:50:06 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29060; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 18:50:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id SAA18652 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 18:49:56 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [209.114.166.2]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA18647 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 18:49:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA22484 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:49:53 -0400 (EDT) To: MPNG List Subject: Re: abbreviated JNG In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 05 Jul 1999 16:51:13 -0400 <3.0.6.32.19990705165113.01a82920@netgsi.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 19:49:53 -0400 Message-ID: <22482.931218593@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson writes: >> The way this would normally work is that the decoder starts out with >> a bunch of NULL table slots. > per JNG-type object.... Er, why? Unless the MNG reader is planning on decoding multiple JNGs in parallel, I don't think it needs multiple JPEG decoder objects. The spec should probably restrict the usage of JTAB in such a way that it doesn't matter whether the reader reuses a JPEG decoder from one JNG to the next or constructs a new decoder object for each JNG (in the latter case it must also save the global JTAB chunk and feed it to each new decoder object). Again, the simplest restriction would be that individual JNG datastreams must not alter the table slots loaded by the global JTAB and must not rely on the initial contents of any other slots. > In the case of Delta-PNG, it could rely on tables being carried > over from the parent object. So you could have this legal but > improbable arrangement: Are we allowing JPEG datastreams to be used in a delta-PNG context? Given the uncertainty of the results, I thought this was going to be forbidden. regards, tom lane -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 5 19:47:47 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29514; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:47:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id TAA20258 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:47:43 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20254 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:47:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a (p1-27.netgsi.com [209.150.125.27]) by mail.netgsi.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1166D18883 for ; Mon, 05 Jul 1999 20:47:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990705204652.00793ba0@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 20:46:52 -0400 To: MPNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: abbreviated JNG In-Reply-To: <22482.931218593@sss.pgh.pa.us> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List At 07:49 PM 7/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >Glenn Randers-Pehrson writes: >>> The way this would normally work is that the decoder starts out with >>> a bunch of NULL table slots. > >> per JNG-type object.... > >Er, why? Unless the MNG reader is planning on decoding multiple JNGs >in parallel, I don't think it needs multiple JPEG decoder objects. Well, that's a decoder issue not a format issue. If it's got several JNGs in a frame, it might opt to decode them in parallel. But it is required to wind up creating a frame that looks as though it had decoded and painted them sequentially but instantaneously. > >The spec should probably restrict the usage of JTAB in such a way that >it doesn't matter whether the reader reuses a JPEG decoder from one >JNG to the next or constructs a new decoder object for each JNG (in the >latter case it must also save the global JTAB chunk and feed it to each >new decoder object). Again, the simplest restriction would be that >individual JNG datastreams must not alter the table slots loaded by the >global JTAB and must not rely on the initial contents of any other >slots. This seems confusing. The JNG that has a local set of tables must use its local set and ignore (or overwrite) the global set that it inherited. Your restriction would allow the decoder to avoid a memory to memory copy of the global JTAB to local JTAB at the expense of keeping track of which slots to use. We don't use a mechanism like that with PLTE. But a decoder that wants to avoid such copies could make such an arrangement with either PLTE or JTAB -- but probably wouldn't be worth the effort. While implementing PNG decoding within MNG we try to avoid messing with libpng at all and use the user access functions like png_set_PLTE to copy the global PLTE into the png struct; this isn't necessarily the most efficient way of doing it, compared to simply pointing to the global PLTE when we want to use it. But a little inefficiency like that is insignificant compared to the time spent "inflating" the pixel data. I would rather not have the JNG spec be worrying about slot assignments. I see how it's done with the Q tables (you'd still have to recompile libjpeg with a larger NUM_QUANT_TABLES if you were using libjpeg), but it's less clear to me how to deal with extra huffman tables. Seems much more straightforward just to say that the global JTAB contains a tables-only JPEG, with the tables in their normal slots, and that a local JTAB can overwrite that data, and that a qtable inside the JDAT would ovewrite *that* data. The extra work in this approach is a wasted copy of the global JDAT to a local JDAT, which you'd need to do if you weren't looking ahead into the JDAT and a global JDAT were present. >Are we allowing JPEG datastreams to be used in a delta-PNG context? >Given the uncertainty of the results, I thought this was going to >be forbidden. We are not allowing color sample updates, and wouldn't allow alpha sample updates if they were JPEG-encoded. We are allowing alpha sample updates when they are PNG-encoded. We *are* allowing complete JNG image replacement while inheriting chunks such as colorspace. JTAB would fall in the category of inheritable chunks. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sun Jul 11 08:43:16 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01490; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 08:43:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id IAA11886 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 08:42:30 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA11880 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 08:42:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990711134229.JZIU9894.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 06:42:29 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990711094137.00ec4940@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:41:37 -0400 To: MPNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: CFD: MNG-0.95c, global sBIT and bKGD In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990615233716.0191d7a0@netgsi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List At 11:37 PM 6/15/99 -0400, I wrote: >CALL FOR DISCUSSION >MNG-0.95c 19990615 global sBIT and bKGD >ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents >MNG-0.95c-bkgd-sbit-19990615.txt >Glenn Randers-Pehrson The voting period on this is nearly over, and the vote is presently 3-0, which would be insufficient for approval. I would like to encourage you to vote affirmatively. The spec is much cleaner when the ancillary chunks are all treated the same way. For a typical set of nontransparent banners, it made the difference between beating GIF or not. For not-so-typical files containing many small frames, it makes a larger difference. What follows is the result of converting a bunch of transparent banners, a bunch of opaque banners, and the "crows.gif" to MNG-0.95b and MNG-0.95c, with ImageMagick. Presently the transparent ones come out larger, but that's because I haven't had time to make "convert" use indexed-colour for those instead of RGBA or GA. You can argue that the converter could delete the useless bKGD chunks, but I argue that a proper converter is obligated to preserve them if it finds them unless the user explicitly instructs it do discard them; and the same goes for sBIT, pHYS, etc. Glenn -------report-95b-vs-95c.txt--------- Script started on Sun Jul 11 08:40:14 1999 png> cd Transparent png> wc -c *.* 10213 brand-roses.gif 21846 brand-roses-95b.mng 21810 brand-roses-95c.mng 10494 brands60pct.gif 12323 brands60pct-95b.mng 12292 brands60pct-95c.mng 11002 fast-easy-free.gif 11969 fast-easy-free-95b.mng 11720 fast-easy-free-95c.mng 10256 fathers_found_468.gif 16136 fathers_found_468-95b.mng 16028 fathers_found_468-95c.mng 9563 freeworld.gif 16962 freeworld-95b.mng 16836 freeworld-95c.mng 7383 game_anim.gif 15649 game_anim-95b.mng 15397 game_anim-95c.mng 11307 iSyndicate.gif 20318 iSyndicate-95b.mng 19976 iSyndicate-95c.mng 11069 realguide.gif 22459 realguide-95b.mng 22315 realguide-95c.mng 11941 roll-with-pros.gif 19273 roll-with-pros-95b.mng 18985 roll-with-pros-95c.mng 9240 tne.gif 12330 tne-95b.mng 12294 tne-95c.mng 6750 webidentity.gif 9742 webidentity-95b.mng 9616 webidentity-95c.mng 9936 zdnetdl.gif 9193 zdnetdl-95b.mng 9072 zdnetdl-95c.mng 493695 total png> wc -c *.gif | tail -1 119154 total png> wc -c *95b* | tail -1 188200 total png> wc -c *95c* | tail -1 186341 total png> cd ../Solid png> wc -c *.* 13106 32bitcom.gif 12145 32bitcom-95b.mng 11890 32bitcom-95c.mng 6140 breakup.gif 6555 breakup-95b.mng 6482 breakup-95c.mng 12314 buzzabout.gif 12570 buzzabout-95b.mng 12510 buzzabout-95c.mng 7644 ccfraud.gif 7565 ccfraud-95b.mng 7362 ccfraud-95c.mng 10960 fatbraintext.gif 16411 fatbraintext-95b.mng 15051 fatbraintext-95c.mng 9621 friends-homesite.gif 8389 friends-homesite-95b.mng 8316 friends-homesite-95c.mng 9880 gigabuys.gif 9206 gigabuys-95b.mng 9094 gigabuys-95c.mng 9132 ie_animated.gif 9318 ie_animated-95b.mng 9063 ie_animated-95c.mng 8339 insweb.gif 8635 insweb-95b.mng 8458 insweb-95c.mng 12748 its4you.gif 12862 its4you-95b.mng 12763 its4you-95c.mng 19402 mci06.gif 5497 mci06-95b.mng 5497 mci06-95c.mng 15856 msinternet.gif 15018 msinternet-95b.mng 14815 msinternet-95c.mng 9188 necx-pcstore.gif 7823 necx-pcstore-95b.mng 7698 necx-pcstore-95c.mng 7997 ruin-your-day.gif 7782 ruin-your-day-95b.mng 7748 ruin-your-day-95c.mng 7190 yahoochat.gif 6983 yahoochat-95b.mng 6923 yahoochat-95c.mng 419550 total png> wc -c *.gif | tail -1 140115 total png> wc -c *95b* | tail -1 141262 total png> wc -c *95c* | tail -1 138173 total png> cd ../Crows png> wc -c crows.* 70579 crows-95b.mng 67223 crows-95c.mng 45704 crows.gif 183506 total png> exit script done on Sun Jul 11 08:41:57 1999 -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sun Jul 11 10:40:04 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02632; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:40:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id KAA18431 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:39:58 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA18426 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:39:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 23236 invoked from network); 11 Jul 1999 15:39:54 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 1999 15:39:54 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt.sonic.net [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20356 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 08:39:54 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id IAA27016 for mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 08:39:53 -0700 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 08:39:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199907111539.IAA27016@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: VOTE: MNG-0.95c YES Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List YES MNG-0.95c 19990615 global sBIT and bKGD ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents MNG-0.95c-bkgd-sbit-19990615.txt Greg Roelofs I'm voting more for consistency than for the size argument; in the cases Glenn posted, the latter wasn't all that compelling. (OK, 1% is worthwhile, but unless those GIFs have a huge number of tiny frames, MNG should be able to do better even without global sBIT and bKGD.) Greg -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sun Jul 11 10:59:05 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02827; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:59:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id KAA19603 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:59:01 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us ([209.114.166.2]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19597 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:58:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15272 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:58:59 -0400 (EDT) To: mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: VOTE: MNG-0.95c YES Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:58:59 -0400 Message-ID: <15269.931708739@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List YES MNG-0.95c 19990615 global sBIT and bKGD ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents MNG-0.95c-bkgd-sbit-19990615.txt Tom Lane I concur with Greg: the size argument isn't exciting, but we may as well treat these chunks consistently with the colorspace chunks. regards, tom lane -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sun Jul 11 10:59:44 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02847; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:59:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id KAA19641 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:59:41 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from echo.sound.net ([205.242.192.21]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA19636 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:59:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 11215 invoked from network); 11 Jul 1999 15:36:48 -0000 Received: from mrvandy.unlimitedpotential.com (HELO PETE) (@209.153.92.26) by echo.sound.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 1999 15:36:48 -0000 Message-ID: <006f01becbb5$cf2f5f60$1a5c99d1@PETE> From: "Mike Reed" To: "MPNG List" Subject: VOTE (YES): MNG-0.95e, pHYg and global pHYs Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:55:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.207 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.207 Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List YES MNG-0.95e 19990618 pHYg and global pHYs ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents MNG-0.95e-phyg-phys-19990618.txt Mike Reed By not freezing the spec and continuing to make changes, for better or not, you have kept the ImageGear folks from including support in the next release. From what I hear talking to several image tool vendors about MNG is that the spec is trying to be all things to all people rather then focus on being the best at any single job. I am told that the spec is overly complex and that the library is larger then need be because of all the possible options. What was the goal of MNG? Was it to have a public domain replacement for GIF? That's what I hoped it was. I am still looking for that solution. As my release date approaches, I am forced to go with GIF as flash is too large and MNG will never stop moving long enough to allow tool makers time to create the tools for the programmers to use. I really hoped to use MNG and avoid the whole GIF mess, but it looks like MNG will continue to evolve forever and never stand still long enough to be useful. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I need an ActiveX control that displays banner ads in some format. With GIF, I have many options... all which lead to paying high royalties to Unisys. Mike Reed Director of Research & Development All Minds Network Project Unlimited Potential, Inc. (800) 758-4462 toll free (913) 685-2700 voice (913) 897-8032 fax http://www.allminds.com http://www.wavefilter.com -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sun Jul 11 14:41:43 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05495; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:41:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id OAA02633 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:41:30 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp3.xs4all.nl (smtp3.xs4all.nl [194.109.30.146]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02626 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:41:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gerard1 (dc2-isdn2210.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.156.162]) by smtp3.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA25967 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 21:41:23 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199907111941.VAA25967@smtp3.xs4all.nl> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gerard Juyn" To: mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 21:47:09 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: VOTE (YES): MNG-0.95e, pHYg and global pHYs In-reply-to: <006f01becbb5$cf2f5f60$1a5c99d1@PETE> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List > From: "Mike Reed" > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:55:32 -0500 > Please correct me if I am wrong, but I need an ActiveX control that displays > banner ads in some format. With GIF, I have many options... all which lead > to paying high royalties to Unisys. > > Mike Reed Mike, Do you have a size-limit for the active-x control, or will it be built into a program? I can probably convert the PNG/MNG-routine from MNGeye into an active-x control, which shouldn't be too much work, considering I'm using Delphi. But it uses the Delphi VCL, so it's a bit bulky... It would take care of the display-part. Creating MNG's could be done with Glenn's ImageMagick implementation. Create the banners as gif, then convert them. They may be a bit larger (currently) but it's better then nothing. I plan to do some animation-creators later on this year; I'm currently swamped with work, and with the summer kicking in, I certainly don't want to spent 24hrs a day in the house behind some screen. Let me know is this can be helpful for you, and then we can work out the details. (PS. thanks for the vote) Regards, Gerard (gjuyn@xs4all.nl / gjuyn@3-t.com) http://www.3-t.com - Style One - Create Stunning Web Pages Effortlessly -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 12 00:03:26 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09269; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 00:03:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id AAA04986 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 00:03:10 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from bartlet.df.lth.se (bartlet.df.lth.se [194.47.252.146]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04979 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 00:03:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (cb@localhost) by bartlet.df.lth.se (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA18031 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:03:03 +0200 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:03:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Christian Brunschen To: MPNG List Subject: VOTE: MNG-0.95c YES In-Reply-To: <199907111539.IAA27016@bolt.sonic.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List YES MNG-0.95c 19990615 global sBIT and bKGD ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents MNG-0.95c-bkgd-sbit-19990615.txt Christian Brunschen -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 12 06:01:27 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA10371; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 06:01:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id GAA25422 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 06:01:20 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from bartlet.df.lth.se (bartlet.df.lth.se [194.47.252.146]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA25417 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 06:01:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (cb@localhost) by bartlet.df.lth.se (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA09887 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:01:17 +0200 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:01:17 +0200 (CEST) From: Christian Brunschen To: MPNG List Subject: VOTE (YES): MNG-0.95e, pHYg and global pHYs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990703004658.01986300@netgsi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List YES MNG-0.95d 19990618 pHYg and global pHYs ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents MNG-0.95e-phyg-phys-19990618.txt Christian Brunschen -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 12 06:29:35 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA10434; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 06:29:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id GAA27056 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 06:29:31 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from arwen.cs.berkeley.edu (arwen.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.33.72]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA27050 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 06:29:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: by arwen.cs.berkeley.edu via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:29:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bartlet.df.lth.se (bartlet.df.lth.se [194.47.252.146]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA09503 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 07:28:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (cb@localhost) by bartlet.df.lth.se (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA08395 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:28:06 +0200 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:28:06 +0200 (CEST) From: Christian Brunschen To: MPNG List Subject: VNC over MNG ? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List Have any of you taken a look at Virtual Network Computing (VNC) ? It is basically a remote-displaying protocol, which sends rectangular screen updates from the server to the client. They are using their own home-brewn protocol which works pretty well. However, I could not help but wonder if some variety of MNG might not be a possibly better way of doing this, mainly because MNG offers compression, because updates might be sent as changes using delta-PNG rather than having to transmit even unchanged pixels, and because MNG offers accurate colour reproduction, which is something that VNC currently lacks. Also, it would mean that a VNC viewer could be rather easily built on top of a `libmng', if one exists, making it even more portable. Likewise, if a future VNC wwere to use MNG, then any platform that had a VNC viewer would also have a (rudimentary) MNG viewer available. Does this appear feasible to you, or have I overlooked something of great importance which makes this insurmountable? Best regards // Christian Brunschen -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 12 07:10:22 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA10538; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:10:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id HAA29438 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:10:16 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA29433 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:10:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990712121015.PKQF9894.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 05:10:15 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990712080924.019ac8e0@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:09:24 -0400 To: MPNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: VNC over MNG ? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List At 02:28 PM 6/29/99 +0200, you wrote: > >Have any of you taken a look at Virtual Network Computing (VNC) > ? I have now... >It is basically a >remote-displaying protocol, which sends rectangular screen updates from >the server to the client. They are using their own home-brewn protocol >which works pretty well. > >However, I could not help but wonder if some variety of MNG might not >be a possibly better way of doing this, mainly because MNG offers >compression, because updates might be sent as changes Their client is stateless, so that would be tough. How do you update an object when you haven't stored the object? But if their client were redone to use a single object that could be updated with PAST chunks, and the basis object could be re-sent on demand whenever the user moves to a different station or does some kind of reset, that might work. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 12 16:30:30 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15950; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:30:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id QAA08501 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:29:48 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.30.145]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA08495 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:29:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gerard1 (dc2-isdn2145.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.156.97]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA29950 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:29:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199907122129.XAA29950@smtp1.xs4all.nl> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gerard Juyn" To: mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:35:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: VNC over MNG ? In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.19990712080924.019ac8e0@netgsi.com> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:09:24 -0400 > From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson > > Have any of you taken a look at Virtual Network Computing (VNC) > > ? > > I have now... I've had a look too. It works pretty neat. Not really fast, but workable. > Their client is stateless, so that would be tough. How do you > update an object when you haven't stored the object? But if their > client were redone to use a single object that could be updated with > PAST chunks, and the basis object could be re-sent on demand > whenever the user moves to a different station or does some kind of > reset, that might work. It could turn out as a sort of streaming MNG. At login-time the whole screen is sent, and afterwards only delta-png's whenever the display gets updated (either locally, from the viewer or by another viewer!) I haven't had a look at the source though. There are some compression-options on the server-side. At least with the windows-server I tried. Could be possible to add an option for a MNG-variant. This would be a dedicated MNG-decoder. Certainly not full-MNG. That would be overkill for the simple purpose of taking command of another machine's desktop. I'm getting a new monster-PC this week, which will mainly host Linux, so I'll have a look at that later on... Gerard (gjuyn@xs4all.nl / gjuyn@3-t.com) http://www.3-t.com - Style One - Create Stunning Web Pages Effortlessly -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 12 19:44:01 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17567; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:44:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id TAA20145 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:43:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA20141 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:43:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Mon Jul 12 17:43:43 1999 To: "MPNG List" Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:43:43 -0700 From: "Richard W. Franzen" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: on X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: VOTE: MNG-0.95c YES X-Sender-Ip: 12.77.192.107 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List YES MNG-0.95c 19990615 global sBIT and bKGD ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents MNG-0.95c-bkgd-sbit-19990615.txt rfranzen@my-deja.com -- -- Rich -- http://home.att.net/~rocq/pngBase.html -- --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 12 19:46:38 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17597; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:46:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id TAA20217 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:46:35 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mc-qout4.whowhere.com (mc-qout4.whowhere.com [209.185.123.18]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA20213 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:46:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by my-deja.com; Mon Jul 12 17:46:27 1999 To: "MPNG List" Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:46:27 -0700 From: "Richard W. Franzen" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: on X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: VOTE (YES): MNG-0.95e, pHYg and global pHYs X-Sender-Ip: 12.77.192.107 Organization: My Deja Email (http://www.my-deja.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List YES MNG-0.95d 19990618 pHYg and global pHYs ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents/MNG-0.95e-phyg-phys-19990618.txt -- -- Rich -- http://home.att.net/~rocq/SIHwheel.html -- --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Jul 13 01:30:18 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA19330; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 01:30:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id BAA00085 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 01:30:05 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from arwen.cs.berkeley.edu (arwen.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.33.72]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA00081 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 01:30:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: by arwen.cs.berkeley.edu via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 06:30:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from postino.up.ac.za (postino-ether.up.ac.za [137.215.103.16]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA06085 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 04:16:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from b022pc234.up.ac.za ([137.215.22.234] helo=postino.up.ac.za) by postino.up.ac.za with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 112tEu-0002uX-00 for mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:16:08 +0200 Message-ID: <37871031.C7028005@postino.up.ac.za> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:19:45 +0200 From: Jacques Steyn Organization: Information Science X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: MNG questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List Hi Apart from the document http://www.cdrom.com/pub/mng/spec/ and isolated mentionings about MNG, there seems to be a lack of info on MNG. How is the development going? Is there any Application program available? Are there any browsers supporting this yet? If not, will a plug-in make that possible? Any other URIs of interest available? Thanks Jacques -- ______________________________________________ Jacques Steyn (PhD) Associate Professor: Multimedia Department of Information Science School for Information Technology University Pretoria Pretoria South Africa Tel +27 12 420 4258 Fax +27 12 362 5181 Email: jsteyn@up.ac.za Web: Information Science http://is.up.ac.za School for Information Technology http://sit.up.ac.za -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Jul 13 08:06:06 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21578; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:06:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id IAA11244 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:05:48 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from email7.starnetinc.com (email7.starnetinc.com [204.178.185.113]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA11240 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:05:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from h9qtr (01-021.001.popsite.net [207.227.180.21]) by email7.starnetinc.com (8.8.8/8.8.2) with SMTP id NAA20443 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:11:10 GMT Message-ID: <378B395B.6382@starnetinc.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:04:27 -0500 From: rsingh X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: MPNG List Subject: Re: MNG questions References: <37871031.C7028005@postino.up.ac.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List > How is the development going? Slow. However thanks to Greg Roelofs INCREDIBLE book on PNG/MNG my own MNG efforts have sped up recently because a whole segment of issues I did not understand are becoming easier to comprehend. I am writing my mng player and encoder in my spare time so it will be months before I have anything tangible. My first goal will be to get an ActiveX Player/Decoder going. RS -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Jul 13 09:07:23 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22342; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:07:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id JAA13058 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:07:17 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA13053 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:07:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 8298 invoked from network); 13 Jul 1999 14:07:14 -0000 Received: from sub.sonic.net (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 14:07:14 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt.sonic.net [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA01847 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:07:13 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id HAA11955 for mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:07:13 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:07:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199907131407.HAA11955@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Subject: Re: MNG questions Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List > Apart from the document > http://www.cdrom.com/pub/mng/spec/ > and isolated mentionings about MNG, there seems to be a lack of info on > MNG. > How is the development going? See http://www.cdrom.com/pub/mng/mngnews.html for a summary. In brief, the MNG spec is officially "frozen" while implementers deal with various issues. Some of those issues have already resulted in changes, but each change requires a formal vote, so they're not undertaken lightly. > Is there any Application program available? http://www.cdrom.com/pub/mng/mngapps.html I know of at least two others that are coming eventually; they'll be listed when they have web pages and/or are a little farther along than they are now. > Are there any browsers supporting this yet? Not that I've heard about. Mozilla would be an obvious target, but its image support is still appallingly weak--the three (four?) image formats it currently supports are not handled the same way, and the underlying support required for alpha-channel transparency (which is fairly important to PNG and MNG) still doesn't exist, despite the switch to a new layout engine 9 months ago. (There's also the small problem of a lack of a MNG programming library, though that's less of an issue.) > If not, will a plug-in make that possible? Sort of, but only if/when the browsers fix their plug-in architectures and their HTML 4.0 support. Most users don't like plug-ins very much, and working around them is an immense pain for site maintainers. The transparency issue is often a separate problem for plug-ins. > Any other URIs of interest available? http://www.cdrom.com/pub/mng/ is a reasonable place to start looking. See also ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/ . I don't know if there's anything else out there that's not linked or mentioned at those two sites. -- Greg Roelofs newt@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~newt/ Newtware, PNG Group, Info-ZIP, Philips Research, ... -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Jul 14 11:22:20 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09604; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:22:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id JAA04751 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:17:23 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04746 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:17:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA03070 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:51:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sji-ca3-45.ix.netcom.com(209.109.233.45) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma003017; Wed Jul 14 00:51:04 1999 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990713224428.0099f950@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: jcbowler@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:44:28 -0700 To: MPNG List From: John Bowler Subject: VOTE (YES): MNG-0.95e, pHYg and global pHYs In-Reply-To: <199907032006.WAA28722@smtp3.xs4all.nl> References: <3.0.6.32.19990703004658.01986300@netgsi.com> <3.0.6.32.19990703001515.0197e540@netgsi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List YES MNG-0.95e 19990618 pHYg and global pHYs ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents MNG-0.95e-phyg-phys-19990618.txt John Bowler -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Wed Jul 14 22:51:21 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA19841; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:51:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id WAA02785 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:50:41 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02781 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:50:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990715035036.PBEB9894.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:50:36 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990714234944.00ed9100@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:49:44 -0400 To: MPNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: CFV: MNG-0.95c In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990630083258.00965630@netgsi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List At 08:32 AM 6/30/99 -0400, I wrote: >CALL FOR VOTE (YES|NO|ABSTAIN) >MNG-0.95c 19990615 global sBIT and bKGD >ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents >MNG-0.95c-bkgd-sbit-19990615.txt >Glenn Randers-Pehrson The voting period on MNG-0.95b has closed. I count six affirmative votes (not counting one duplicate), all cast by eligible voters; no negative votes; and no abstensions. The MNG-0.95c proposal is approved and the MNG global bKGD and sBIT chunks are registered. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Fri Jul 16 09:58:49 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17854; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:58:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id JAA26991 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:57:29 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA26985 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:57:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990716145727.BRWB9894.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:57:27 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990716105635.014b8820@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:56:35 -0400 To: MPNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: CFV: MNG-0.95e, pHYg and global pHYs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990703001515.0197e540@netgsi.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990618085954.01922b20@netgsi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List At 12:15 AM 7/3/99 -0400, I wrote: >CALL FOR VOTE (YES|NO|ABSTAIN) >MNG-0.95d 19990618 pHYg and global pHYs >ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents >MNG-0.95e-phyg-phys-19990618.txt >Glenn Randers-Pehrson Reminder: voting will close on this proposal tonight (or tomorrow morning, depending on where you are) at 23:47 Central Standard Time (04:47 UTC 3 July). The vote presently stands at 5-0 plus one affirmative vote from an ineligible voter, which would be sufficient to approve the proposal. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Jul 20 05:55:16 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA24480; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 05:55:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id FAA12053 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 05:54:15 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA12049 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 05:54:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990720105413.BPTD9894.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 03:54:13 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990720065317.01baccb0@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 06:53:17 -0400 To: mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: MNG-0.96 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List I've combined the MNG-0.95b, c, and e drafts and done a slight amount of editorial changes, resulting in MNG-0.96 documents, which I have posted to swrinde in the usual html-4.0, html-2.0, PostScript, and text formats. ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents Greg, please copy to the MNG web site. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Tue Jul 20 05:56:49 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA24493; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 05:56:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id FAA12073 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 05:56:46 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA12069 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 05:56:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990720105645.BPXV9894.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 03:56:45 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990720065550.01bae740@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 06:55:50 -0400 To: MPNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: CFV: MNG-0.95e, pHYg and global pHYs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990703001515.0197e540@netgsi.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990618085954.01922b20@netgsi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List At 12:15 AM 7/3/99 -0400, you wrote: >CALL FOR VOTE (YES|NO|ABSTAIN) >MNG-0.95d 19990618 pHYg and global pHYs >ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents >MNG-0.95e-phyg-phys-19990618.txt >Glenn Randers-Pehrson I counted five affirmative votes, no negative votes or abstensions, and did not count one ineligible affirmative vote. The MNG-0.95e proposal is approved and the pHYg chunk is registered. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Sat Jul 24 09:54:37 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05780; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:54:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id JAA03398 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:53:00 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03394 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:52:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990724145259.NCCG9894.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:52:59 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990724105203.01a2b220@iximd.com> X-Sender: glennrp@iximd.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:52:03 -0400 To: mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: Adam7 interlacing demo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List At 07:28 PM 7/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >Chris, > > I'm impressed! I did notice that the different programs available to me > ended up with different sizes. But I chose the smallest and pngcrush'd it. > (Glenn, it looks like another check is in order -- no filtering :-) The image is somewhat pathological. At zlib compression level 4, adaptive filtering produces a smaller file than no filtering, which stymies the pngcrush heuristics. "pngcrush -brute" finds a 31452-byte version, but it takes almost 3 minutes on a 200Mhz machine, compared to ten seconds using the heuristics. I guess I could add a heuristic to the effect that if the ratio of "none/adaptive" is very close to 1.0 in the first pass, which was the case for this file, try both at the next higher zlib compression level. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 26 16:55:28 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28871; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:55:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id QAA01460 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:49:56 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01456 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:49:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990724223854.PTZI9894.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 15:38:54 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990724183759.0194f4a0@iximd.com> X-Sender: glennrp@iximd.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 18:37:59 -0400 To: mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: MNG vs GIF file sizes [was Re: CFD MNG-0.95a...] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List I wrote: >Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:07:08 -0400 >To: MPNG List >From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson >Subject: Re: MNG vs GIF file sizes [was Re: CFD MNG-0.95a...] > >I bought a CD yesterday, "5,000 Animations" by Media Graphics, which >cost $4.99. The animations are pretty cheesy, worth about what I >paid. Just running ImageMagick's "convert file.gif file.mng" with >no other attempt at optimization or removing extraneous text chunks >inserted by ImageMagick, I obtained > > gifs: 42,450,697 bytes > mngs: 42,434,065 bytes > >Eleven of the gifs were corrupt and not converted. Actually 16 were corrupt, when I counted more carefully and removed them. > Twelve had >gif-disposal-method=3 and were converted as though the disposal >method were "keep". A number of them had interframe delay = 0, >but I converted those to interframe-delay = 10 ms rather than >coalescing all of the frames into one, which would be permissible. >The MNGs are all in the MNG-LC subset. > >I had loaded ImageMagick with libpng-1.0.3a; if you try this with >libpng-1.0.3 the files will be somewhat larger because libpng 1.0.3 >can't write MNGs with a global PLTE. Also I used ImageMagick's >default compression level (7), so some additional compression might >be possible -- but would take longer than the 22 minutes required >for the default conversion. I reran the test with zlib compression level 9, and there was a slight improvement: GIF: 42,344,269 bytes (after removing the corrupted GIFs) MNG: 41,151,602 bytes Apologies if you see this more than once. I'm not seeing my postings at all -- still cleaning up after my ISP folded yesterday without notice. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu From owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Mon Jul 26 17:06:08 1999 Received: from ccrc.wustl.edu (cashew.ccrc.wustl.edu [128.252.169.100]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29055; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:06:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id RAA02790 for mpng-list-out-eY3f3Qzu; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:05:59 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cashew.wustl.edu: majordom set sender to owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu using -f Received: from u21.CS.Berkeley.EDU (u21.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.44.145]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02778 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:05:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from amc@localhost) by u21.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.3/8.8.2) id TAA01421 for mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by ccrc.wustl.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA02637 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:08:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com ([24.7.161.22]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990724140804.MXXA9894.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@cc170083-a.abdn1.md.home.com> for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:08:04 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990724100708.01a3c300@iximd.com> X-Sender: glennrp@iximd.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:07:08 -0400 To: MPNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: MNG vs GIF file sizes [was Re: CFD MNG-0.95a...] In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990612141326.00f99100@netgsi.com> References: <030001beb1c6$f6343490$1a5c99d1@PETE> <02f001beb1b2$fcf9b1b0$1a5c99d1@PETE> <3.0.6.32.19990608112134.019e4bd0@netgsi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-mpng-list@ccrc.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MPNG List At 02:13 PM 6/12/99 -0400, you wrote: >At 10:52 AM 6/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >>If you have time, please grab a few random animated gif ads from any web >>site you choose. Convert them to MNG and report the results. Might be >>interesting. I bought a CD yesterday, "5,000 Animations" by Media Graphics, which cost $4.99. The animations are pretty cheesy, worth about what I paid. Just running ImageMagick's "convert file.gif file.mng" with no other attempt at optimization or removing extraneous text chunks inserted by ImageMagick, I obtained gifs: 42,450,697 bytes mngs: 42,434,065 bytes Eleven of the gifs were corrupt and not converted. Twelve had gif-disposal-method=3 and were converted as though the disposal method were "keep". A number of them had interframe delay = 0, but I converted those to interframe-delay = 10 ms rather than coalescing all of the frames into one, which would be permissible. The MNGs are all in the MNG-LC subset. I had loaded ImageMagick with libpng-1.0.3a; if you try this with libpng-1.0.3 the files will be somewhat larger because libpng 1.0.3 can't write MNGs with a global PLTE. Also I used ImageMagick's default compression level (7), so some additional compression might be possible -- but would take longer than the 22 minutes required for the default conversion. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to mpng-list-request@ccrc.wustl.edu